Interesting Article: The Game Without Treadmills

[Thorin]

Interesting thoughts about "treadmills" in games (aka "the grind"):

http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/04/23/the-game-without-treadmills/

Even though I stay away from video / computer games because I know I'll get stuck on the treadmill, I've found we still do a very similar thing in table-top role-playing games like D&D.  Although the D&D games I'm part of don't allow returning to the same area to kill the same type of monsters over and over to gain enough XP to move up a level.

[Darren Dirt]

it's funny, reading this thread title and skimming your post, I immediately thought of my personal interpretation how it feels lately...

while (!BadBeatJackpotAwarded && !SofaKingTired)
{
if(aboutAnHourHasPassed())
{
 chipStack+=ColdEndOf(Cooler) ? -(HugePot) : +(HugePot))
}
else
{
 chipStack+=theOccasionalMediumPotWhenNobodyElseHasMuch();
 chipStack-=theMonsterDrawThatDoesntGetThere();
};
};

at least that's kinda the summary of The Grind at live $3/6 limit holdem...


PS: oddly enough, poker = one of those "other" types of game ("Game Of Skill") as you can confirm pretty easily that "the average user is below average". And yet you see those below average players keep returning time and again to The Grind.

[Melbosa]

Hmmmm some people I knew played D&D with the Grind.  What a boring version of game play that is for a Paper-Back RPG... 

[Lazybones]

It is hard to not boil skill advancement down to kill x and apply x points to skills.. Funny when Bioware hid some of this in ME2 people complained...

[Mr. Analog]

Any game will grind after a while, heck even action games like Street Fighter require serious players to actively sharpen their own skills over years.

It boils down to how rewarding the experience is really, if someone is inside playing EVE Online all the time instead of experiencing real life that's their call I guess and it must be rewarding for them.

Actually I think just about anything that requires skill can become a grind...

[Darren Dirt]

Compulsion Loops + Micro Transactions + iPhone Apps = PROFIT!

http://fromdimestodollars.tumblr.com/post/979141706/would-you-buy-a-10-000-video-game-the-power-of

[Darren Dirt]

"In Defense of Grinding"

http://quicktimeevent.blogspot.com/2010/03/in-defense-of-grinding.html

hmmm, deep thoughts...

[Mr. Analog]

"In Defense of Grinding"

http://quicktimeevent.blogspot.com/2010/03/in-defense-of-grinding.html

hmmm, deep thoughts...

Well, the article is correct for the most part, I can't tell you how much time I spent in the Library of Castelvania "GRINDING" to get the Crissaegrim (a virtually game-breaking item). The thing that kills most games when it comes to grinding is the lack of immersion particularly found in MMOs (kill x enemies of type y) it's so lazy on the developers part and for the gamer its just a chore. If it made sense like if you brought in 50 beaver pelts and got 100 gold for them or something and didn't make it a core element for a quest, or if you had to find just one rare item that spawned specifically for you that no one else could poach it would be cool. But I found in many games that you just end up queuing up for certain items or temporarily joining up with others to try to get rid of foes faster for no good reason. It totally breaks immersion and makes things a lot less fun.

[Lazybones]

Its challenge vs chore / risk vs reward... It has to be a task that isn't that easy but not one that you have to repeat until it is boring.

I like games where my actions impact the story in more than one possible way and that I can fail but not ultimately get STUCK on the same thing for large amounts of time.

[Mr. Analog]

Yeah, getting stuck really kills a lot of games from all genres.