Parental controls on consoles

[Thorin]

As discussed here, there are apparently parental controls coming on all three new major consoles.  Now, will that really help, given that games like GTA got rated wrong due to hidden content?



I sincerely believe that we should not use technology to arbitrarily limit what our kids can see or do; rather we should talk with them about why they should wait viewing or playing some things.  My kids understand that if they were to watch an 18+ rated horror movie right now, they'd be scared out of their minds, and don't mind waiting until they're older to see those movies.



At the same time, I check games and movies myself to see what they're like, if I haven't seen them before or don't know anything about them (yeah, that's the reason.  Honest!  I'm not using it as an excuse to play games!).

[Shayne]

What do you tell your kids about porn?  They'd be scared out of their minds?  Depending on the age group, that could prove an interesting topic.



I'm against censorship in any form.  I do not believe that anybody should limit what i want i can and cant have access too.



My father let me watch "The Blob" (remade 80s version) when i was young, like 12 or something, scared the crap out of me (when the guys arm comes off), i cant say it affected my growth or emotional stability.



HOWEVER, i like the idea of parental controls on consoles, dvd players, cellphones, whatever because it ensures that the content i have always had access to will remain accessable because it can be locked by the over protective parents rather then banning it outright.



No excuse to not have a more violent CoD2 or GTA

[Cova]

I don't see whats wrong with allowing parents to control what their kids watch.  Before all these fancy electronic things existed, kids just didn't have access to content like that - what content existed on the media at the time (magazines, etc.) was controlled at the retail store and not sold to minors, as is still done today for physical objects that minors shouldn't have (drugs, porn, etc)  Now we've got these fancy electronic things that deliver all that right to your living room, but the machines aren't smart enough to say "Hey - you're too young for this", so they've implemented parental controls so that worried mom's don't suddenly have to start watching their kids even when they haven't left the house yet.



As long as all the questionable content is delivered and its left to the end-user to configure (or not), people like me can have all the porn and violence, and people who don't want it can turn it off.

[Thorin]

My concern is that parental controls will make parents *think* that they're doing right by their children, rather than teaching them how to make the decision on their own.  Case in point - I'm okay with a sixteen-year-old playing Mature rated games (supposed to be 17+).  However, I'm not sure I'd want them running around with a big purple double-ended dildo while wearing a gimp suit, as is the case with the ending to Grand Theft Auto.  Now, if I blithely and blindly turn on parental controls, this game would have been playable because the rating of it was given wrong.



Also, we aren't able to control the set-up of parental controls on such devices in other homes.  If we place all our trust in parental controls, then we have to place our trust in our childrens' friends' parents.  Given that people around the country and the world have wildly varying ideas of what is alright and what isn't, we would be blithely and blindly trusting the parents.  Rather than do that, I try to educate my children about what is age appropriate and what isn't.  I can only hope that they self-censor when not in my supervision.



My basic problem is that I see many parents who assume that turning on the parental controls is all they have to do, rather than spending the time to teach their kids about why some things aren't age appropriate.  It irritates me that they have no clue about what their kids are really doing.  These types of parents typically have two nice cars and a big house, too (see, I live in St. Albert - there's a lot of I-wanna-look-rich people here).



Now, as far as porn goes, keep in mind I immigrated from Holland and I'm pretty liberal-minded on the topic (although puritannical Canada certainly has left its mark).  I have no problem talking about how babies are made, why some people make movies of it, etc.  At the same time, I know that they'll be inquisitive and possibly experiment and possibly get pregnant.  I'll certainly tell them about the hardships they may encounter if they have babies young, but I'll also tell them about all the joys babies bring to your life.  In short, they'll know lots about it, including the mechanics.

[Thorin]

was controlled at the retail store and not sold to minors, as is still done today for physical objects that minors shouldn't have (drugs, porn, etc)

What kind of drugs are the kids not allowed to buy at the store?



I'm not making an argument for censorship - on the contrary, I think everything should be available.  Rather, I think parents should teach their kids to navigate and to self-censor.  If we don't teach them now, they may never learn.



I do think that kids should also be taught about how not to trample the rights of others.  If my kids decide to use drugs (including alcohol or tobacco), I expect they will understand that to drive under the influence is to endanger other people, and thus trample their rights to a safe life.  If my kids decide to watch porn, I expect they will understand that there are porn directors that actually *force* their women to do all kinds of unthinkable things, and that buying and watching movies made by said directors tramples the rights to a safe life of the women who are abused to make the movie.  If my kids decide to play a game such as Grand Theft Auto, I expect they will understand that to carry out in real life what they see in the game, shooting people and stealing cars and more, will trample the rights of the people whom they shoot or steal cars from.



I know that there's no way a child can learn how not to trample the rights of others by me simply turning on parental controls.  I *have* to talk to them about all the tough topics, and make sure they understand that they must censor their own activities at least enough to not infringe on the rights of others.  Beyond that, of course, I can only hope they don't turn socio- or psychopathic.  Experts are still unsure whether socio- and psychopathy are inherited, abnormalities, or learned behaviours.



But, and this is my point after all this rambling in three posts, parental controls teach the kids nothing and lull parents into thinking that everything's okay when it may not be.  Thus I see them as zero net gain for society.

[Thorin]

Now I have to admit, I've turned on parental controls on our cable box.  So far, all it really does is annoy the parents, though, as we have to keep entering the code (or turn it off and then remembering to turn it back on).  There have been shows on that are not rated and that the kids manage to flip to anyway, including ones containing real footage from the world wars, where men are shot.  I have seen my kids change channels away from these shows, as they realize it's not age-appropriate.



I think sometime soon, when its finally bugged me enough, I'll be turning off parental control on the cable box.  :?

[Cova]

What kind of drugs are the kids not allowed to buy at the store?

I tend to categorize all drugs under the word 'drug' - not just legal and/or illegal ones.  So tobacco, alcohol, and various prescription drugs are all drugs that kids can't buy in stores.



As for your 3 pages of commentary on how kids should be raised and how the average modern parent sucks at it - I don't disagree with any of it.  Raising a kid is a lot of work, and parents need to be involed and train them right and wrong and all that stuff.  Parental controls on TV/Consoles are not a solution to the problem of parenting in general - they are a solution to the problem of leaving the kids alone in the basement in front of the TV for an hour.  Parental controls have a good use within certain constraints - they are not the solution to all life's problems.

[Darren Dirt]

Thanks Thorin especially for sharing -- I as a fellow parent am going through challenges right now, and believe as well that censorship in general is a bad idea, since what is happening is JOE is not able to enjoy artistic creations that JACK disapproves of, just because JACK has a louder voice, bigger wallet, and/or more legsislators that are controlled by either of those.



A recent example: I was playing "Army Men: Sarge's War" with my 9-year-old son the other day. It was a great fun time, and we almost immediately got past the violent aspect of it, and focused quickly on the tactics and strategies (hint: if you flamethrower your opponent, do not stand near him and chortle happily in victory -- he might have dropped a grenade; after 5 times you might learn )



But when he was playing Halo at Lazy's house a few months ago, I see now that it was a bit too realistic, because he was not at that time really able to separate well the gameplay from reality (he had bad dreams and/or flashbacks a few weeks onward). So I know personally my son's own limits, and hope to keep open communication with him about what is appropriate, etc. *But* I do not wish to impose my personal beliefs on another parent, especially knowing that a 6 year old can be more mature than another's 10 year old, etc.





I like your frequent use of the word "trample" when discussing rights -- that's a good visual metaphor, the imagery connotes, correctly, the idea that something is crushed by the force of another, to the detriment of the rightful "owner" of that right. I may appreciate a society more that has less drug-induced murders happening all the time (including alcohol, remember) but I don't think those exceptions justify preventing countless others from taking in food or drink etc. for their own personal reasons when they are not (in that act itself) harming another individuals life, liberty, or property. Self-ownership=self-control=self-responsbility.



Unfortunately, too many people claim "pre-emptive protection" of genuine rights, and use that to justify using force to control or restrain other free individuals "just in case" or even because of the "indirect results" of certain things happening or being allowed to continue *cough*Bush*Ashcroft*Rummie*cough* <-- The irony is, I love as pure escapism the TV series "24"  :?





Anyway, a reminder I guess that technology -- any technology - is simply a TOOL, that man uses to extend his inidividual power. That goes for pencil and pistols and even ideas. No switch on a cable box or sticker on a music CD can ever replace the (parent-guided) exercise of REASON -- you know, that thing that we used to willfully apply to our own individual situations before Fox News told us what to think about everything?

[Thorin]

Sounds like you and I are of one mind on this, Darren.



As for HALO, I could see my son's physical reaction to it.  He got excited, had a more rapid pulse, the eyes dilated a bit, and he focused on the screen and nothing else.  Around that same time, he started asking that the hallway light be left on at night.  I don't know if the two are connected.



That does raise an interesting question, though.  The game was clearly on because adults were playing it - certainly nothing wrong there.  But when the little ones arrived (keeping in mind some were two or three or four), should it have been turned off?  That is, should the adults be censored to the level of the kids, or should the kids be kept out of the room so the adults can play the game?  This lends credence to the idea previously held that children should be off to play in a different part of the house while the parents chat.  I'm not sure where I stand on that issue, though.

[Thorin]

As you can tell, I spend a lot of time thinking about the "right" way to parent my kids  And yet, for all my good intentions they still decide to go good or bad all on their own...

[Shayne]

Letting kids grown on their own is a fundamental need.  Way back in the cave man days im sure as @%&# that their wasnt a FCC, up till probably less then 50 years ago the whole idea of censorship was probably not high on ones priority list (wars, poverty, etc).



I grew up in a house hold with little to no rules.  I never had a curfew, my parents never limited my choices, and i think im a better person for it.  While that may sound like anarchy the rules around my lack of rules were strict.  I could be up and out as long as i want, as long as im in the classroom when school starts.



We cant honestly say that things are worse then they were.



The generation after the upcoming generation is gonna be real interesting to watch, im sorta glad i'll be on the way out at that time.

[Thorin]

up till probably less then 50 years ago the whole idea of censorship was probably not high on ones priority list (wars, poverty, etc).

Hmm.  Well, Victorian times in England were pretty strict and censored.  You certainly couldn't do whatever you wanted to.  Feudal Japan didn't allow for a lot of free will either, unless you were at the top.  At the end of the 19th century, publishing books about gay sex was strictly forbidden in most puritannical English-speaking nations around the globe.  In 1937 (68 years ago), the Nazis burned and banned hundreds of Jew books.  That's all censorship, and it in fact went hand-in-hand with war and/or poverty and/or power struggles.  Censorship *has* been around for a couple thousand years in the Christian churches, although they used to call it "taking care of the heretics".

I grew up in a house hold with little to no rules.  I never had a curfew, my parents never limited my choices, and i think im a better person for it.  While that may sound like anarchy the rules around my lack of rules were strict.  I could be up and out as long as i want, as long as im in the classroom when school starts.

I would guess here that you are talking about your later childhood, rather than your earlier childhood.  I doubt very much that at six years old when you were in grade one your parents let you roam around the neighbourhood until whenever you decided to come home.  However, if in your later years your parents told you to determine on your own when you should go to bed so that you can make it to school, they were actually teaching you to be self-sufficient and self-censoring.  I'm sure they also provided suggestions and guidance on how to make your own decisions.  At that point, there probably were a few basic rules; for instance, having to be in class every day was a rule.

We cant honestly say that things are worse then they were.

Not sure what you mean here...  Are you saying that parents are taking better care of their children than they were x number of years ago?  Or are you saying that life is safer than it was x number of years ago?

[Darren Dirt]

That does raise an interesting question, though.  The game was clearly on because adults were playing it - certainly nothing wrong there.  But when the little ones arrived (keeping in mind some were two or three or four), should it have been turned off?  That is, should the adults be censored to the level of the kids, or should the kids be kept out of the room so the adults can play the game?  This lends credence to the idea previously held that children should be off to play in a different part of the house while the parents chat.  I'm not sure where I stand on that issue, though.

Yes, it does raise that, but in general too -- sometimes (as my brother says) we adults use a lot of "salt and pepper" in our verbiage. I try to keep my kids out of environments with that, or with negative and destructive attitudes that are behind that kinda language.



Just my preference, no need to make all the adults stop having fun



Although some days I figure this would be a much handier solution

[Thorin]

Right, but in this case we were invited kids'n'all to the party.  However, I've been to parties that included kids and adults where an area was set aside for kid things and another area was set aside for adult things, and generally the kids played on their own.  But is that the right solution?  Should kids and adults interact more, or should they be sheltered from adults and adult behaviours?  Or should kids be left to play and explore in their imaginary, dreamed-up worlds while the adults tell strange and mysterious jokes that kids won't understand until their adults (and specifically not explaining the jokes to the kids), while drinking beer or wine?  I've been bashing this around in my head since reading an article in Today's Parent that espoused the idea of keeping Adulthood a Mystery for children, something they didn't understand and didn't need to understand until they were at last Adults themselves.



As for the salt-n-pepper verbiage, my kids know there are words that bother people and that if they say them the kids will be considered rude.  They know what the middle-finger-salute is, and have had junior high kids salute their bus as they drive by.  They know that saying these words can lead to hurt feelings or people taking them less seriously rather than more (dismissing them as rude little kids rather than taking their opinion seriously).  With all this explanation of these words and their meaning and strength, they don't say them, as far as I've heard.



So what words do I consider to be rude or hurtful or may cause dismissive attitudes towards them?

- Ass(hole)

- Bitch

- @%&#

- Idiot

- @%&#

- Stupid



Which is an interesting list, because swear words are not given any special preference over other words that can also really hurt someone's feelings when you say them.  Really, words only have power if you give them power.  They do hear these words around them, both from adults and other kids.  They even sometimes tell others not to say them.



Hmm, I think I might be turning my kids into policemen :?  Should be interesting to see what they're all like in five years.  But that's the joy of parenting - you get one long chance to do it right, you fret about it the whole time, you can never go back and fix mistakes, and in the end it's the child not you who gets to decide what they do with their life.

[Cova]

Boy has this thread ever drifted from the original topic of parental controls on consoles.  And I'm gonna take it off-topic a little more with this post - but all this discussion of censorship and stuff is putting idea's in my head.



First idea - relating to what you do or don't allow your kids to do (and how it effects them later) - as Shayne said earlier, my parents placed very few rules on what I did and such.  I was kept fairly well-shielded from porn and stuff like that, but virtually no censorship on violence/language since elementary school.  And what I'd really like to hear opinions on - I was often allowed alcohol from a very young age.  My family is of German descent, and at the time there was no drinking age in Germany (now it's 14 years).  Dad kept me from getting drunk, but I'd usually share his beer's, until I got enough body-mass; I was having beers to myself in my early teens.  And the effect this had on my life - it took the danger and mystery out of alcohol.  When I turned 18 going out and drinking as much as I could hold was the last thing on my mind - I'd been drinking for 10 years already, what makes that day any more important.





Second idea - this one goes way off-topic, but it popped into my head thanks to this quote from above... "Thanks Thorin especially for sharing -- I as a fellow parent am going through challenges right now, and believe as well that censorship in general is a bad idea, since what is happening is JOE is not able to enjoy artistic creations that JACK disapproves of, just because JACK has a louder voice, bigger wallet, and/or more legsislators that are controlled by either of those.", except I'm thinking more prohibition than censorship - imho prohibition is just censorship of a physical object/material/thing.  Specifically, I'd like your thoughts on cannabis legalization.  If you haven't guessed yet, yes I'm pro-legalization.  But don't read into that that I think kids should be allowed to have it, or that people should be driving around smoking, or anything like that.  Like alcohol and tobacco it needs to remain a controlled substance.  But as in the quote above, just because the anti-legalization crowd has a louder voice, bigger wallet, etc. it is banned altogether.





Anyways - those two paragraphs should stir things up a bit in here