Righteous Wrath Online Community

So tomorrow is the dawn of a new Windows generation, its been a very long time since the last OS released, and I can't help to be excited.  I have been using the business version provided to me by a buddy for the last few weeks and I really do like it and very little do i dislike (well, i dont like the start menu).

So, who here is upgrading, and to what version?

My company is providing its employees and contractors a 50% subsidy on the purchase of Vista, so I will probably walk over to Future Shop tomorrow and drop down the $500 on Vista Ultimate.

I am in no rush, maybe in a year or 2 :)

Most likely when a game comes along that I really want to play and requires DirectX 10, I'll make the move.

http://www.futureshop.ca/marketing/windowsvista/EN/getready/editions_default.asp?logon=&langid=EN

Helpful link for those interested.

Premium is probably best for everyone

Ever since I played with the media-center-extender to my 360 from Vista RC1, I've been unable to get the 360 to stream ANYTHING from ANY computer on my network (windows media connect, media center extender, WMP11, etc.) - I'll probably upgrade to vista at home in the near future in the hopes that my 360 streaming will start working again.  I'm waiting to find out what kind of deals I can get on price though - hopefully NAIT will offer something similar to staff like we had for XP - staff could get XP Pro for $15 (though the license fine-print says it expires if you leave NAIT).

On the other hand, all the DRM technologies and other crap in Vista really piss me off.  Every day I use Vista, I want to change to linux on my desktop a little bit more.  I might end up with a Gentoo/XP dual-boot system (XP just around to play games in).

The DRM stuff sort of confuses me, as far as I can tell I will be pretty much unaffected.  Sure the whole hi def video and what not, but its the same stuff you get with current HD content on the TV so I'm not too worried about it.

Media Center functionality is very important to me.  I really like the new GUI and I find that important to me.  Shadow Copy is also very important to me.  Im sure I can come up with enough stuff.

No way will I ever use Linux.  Segregation is the biggest issue i have with it.

Quote from: Cova on January 29, 2007, 01:56:25 PM
On the other hand, all the DRM technologies and other crap in Vista really piss me off.  Every day I use Vista, I want to change to linux on my desktop a little bit more.  I might end up with a Gentoo/XP dual-boot system (XP just around to play games in).

I always laugh when I see this argument. Vista SUPPORTS DRM standards it doesn't arbitrarily enforce them. Highdef content you have now should play high def on VISTA. Vista simply supports playback of standards that do include DRM and if that content has the DRM restriction flag set it with enforce the standard as it was written.

Any Highdef content that implements the DRM that would be quality reduced in Vista, would also be completely unsupported in Linux. If you decript and rip the content to another format, then you basically remove the restriction for ether platform.

Vista DRM Cracked by Security Researcher (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/29/1811201)

No details yet, but it sounds legit (too legit to quit?).

I don't just mean the DRM that applies to HD video content on Vista though - I'm refering to everything DRM-related about the OS.  From its activation and rediculous licensing terms (why can't I run home edition in a VM - what if I'm a dev that wants to test stuff in that environment).  I also don't like the amount of system resources Vista allocates to confirming that all its various protections are in place and working properly.  I don't like it restricting what drivers and software I can install and run.  I just plain hate the user-account-control system (though thats not really DRM related, it is still a huge limitation on what I can do with my computer).

Also - Mr. Geist has put up an article titled 'Vista's Fine Print', which is a pretty good read.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1641/135/

Quote from: Cova on January 29, 2007, 02:38:04 PM
I don't just mean the DRM that applies to HD video content on Vista though - I'm refering to everything DRM-related about the OS.  From its activation and rediculous licensing terms (why can't I run home edition in a VM - what if I'm a dev that wants to test stuff in that environment).  I also don't like the amount of system resources Vista allocates to confirming that all its various protections are in place and working properly.  I don't like it restricting what drivers and software I can install and run.  I just plain hate the user-account-control system (though thats not really DRM related, it is still a huge limitation on what I can do with my computer).

- Activation terms are not so different than those in XP. Shame on MS for not wanting you to pirate their OS.
- Recourse used to check if protections are in place apply to DRM HD content, I doubt these checks are running while you decode a DIVX you found lying around.
- Restrictions on driver are required to ensure security for DRM HD content, it has also been cited many times that poor drivers are the number one source for system instability. This also keeps 3rd parties out of the kernel where they don't belong.
- Not sure what is wrong with the user-account-control system? Is this a home edition issue? or did they drasticly change something I am not yet aware of.

Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 29, 2007, 02:34:54 PM
Vista DRM Cracked by Security Researcher (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/29/1811201)

No details yet, but it sounds legit (too legit to quit?).

Canadians are so creative due to our extended white season ;)

Re:Misleading story(Score:5, Interesting)
by Alex_Ionescu (http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=219438&cid=17804272) (199153) on Monday January 29, @03:26PM (#17804272)
(http://www.alex-ionescu.com/)
1). It doesn't work out of the Box.

Yes, it requires a reboot, which is why it's only useful for bypassing DRM, not for open source apps (which will have to bother the user to reboot).

2). It uses a method provided by Microsoft.

Erm, no, PMP is provided by Microsoft. This method bypasses it.

3). It hasn't been tested.

It works fine, the actual PMP-disabling code hasn't been tested because I don't want to touch that. But my code ran in kernel-mode, which means it's possible. Read up a bit on computer architecture and you'll see that as long as you have access to the kernel, you're God on the machine (Apart from hypervisor machines and/or additional hardware -- which PMP doesn't currently employ).

4). Author is more afraid of the DMCA than of violating Microsofts EULA terms.

Author is a student and doesn't want to be sued out of existence because this method could be used to "circumvent a technological measure primarly destined for copyright protection".


http://www.alex-ionescu.com/?p=24#comments

( For the curious, Alex has 70+ other comments on /. (http://slashdot.org/~Alex_Ionescu) )



- - -

Quote
Vista's legal fine print includes extensive provisions granting Microsoft the right to regularly check the legitimacy of the software and holds the prospect of deleting certain programs without the user's knowledge.  ...Vista also incorporates Windows Defender, an anti-virus program that actively scans computers for "spyware, adware, and other potentially unwanted software." The agreement does not define any of these terms, leaving it to Microsoft to determine what constitutes unwanted software.  Once operational, the agreement warns that Windows Defender will, by default, automatically remove software rated "high" or "severe,"even though that may result in other software ceasing to work or mistakenly result in the removal of software that is not unwanted.

from "Vista's Fine Print" (http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1641/135/) (legal blog)

::) count me in ;)

Quote from: Lazybones on January 29, 2007, 03:01:05 PM- Activation terms are not so different than those in XP. Shame on MS for not wanting you to pirate their OS.

Similar, but from everything I've heard it takes less modification to an existing system to trigger a re-activation, they are enforcing activations more strictly, and they are requiring activation of volume license copies (even if it does activate to your own KMS, it's a pain in the ass).  XP Activation was bad enough that even though I own a legal copy of XP Pro, I install a volume license copy from work because of how much easier it was to get working.

Quote from: Lazybones on January 29, 2007, 03:01:05 PM- Recourse used to check if protections are in place apply to DRM HD content, I doubt these checks are running while you decode a DIVX you found lying around.

The checks for HD content probably mostly won't be running while watching a divx.  Though something like your video driver / video card / monitor all talking HDCP is likely using resources whenever the monitor has a picture on it.  And then there are all the other various security checks for activation and @%&# that are always running - don't limit yourself to just thinking about HD, Vista has issues all around.

Quote from: Lazybones on January 29, 2007, 03:01:05 PM- Restrictions on driver are required to ensure security for DRM HD content, it has also been cited many times that poor drivers are the number one source for system instability. This also keeps 3rd parties out of the kernel where they don't belong.

It also limits useful functionality such as tools like Deamon Tools.  I believe I should be able to run whatever code I want on my OS, including kernel-level hacks and bad 3rd party drivers.  I know they cause most of the instability in Windows, but it should be my choice between having a stable system or a system that does what I want.

Quote from: Lazybones on January 29, 2007, 03:01:05 PM- Not sure what is wrong with the user-account-control system? Is this a home edition issue? or did they drasticly change something I am not yet aware of.

The biggest problem with it is that things that fail due to UAC have horrible error messages that don't point you in the right direction at all.  eg. when I had installed a very small 3rd party program (a small app that puts info onto my G15 LCD) and I needed to configure it by editing its .ini file, located somewhere under Program Files - EVERY file under program files is protected by UAC apparently.  When notepad gives me a "read only" error saving changes, but the read-only flag is not yet, and NTFS security says I have full write access, but I can't change anything - I get pissed off.  At the time I was running Ultimate edition, RC1.  Maybe UAC's gotten better since then (that was the release that supposedly had the better UAC), but if I ever do run Vista it'll be the first thing I turn off.

Oh, quit yer whining and let Momma Microsoft take good care of you by making all the real decisions for you... After all you don't "own" the O.S., you only have a "usage" license.

;)

Here's Tech - Reports spin on Windows licensing. (http://www.techreport.com/etc/2007q1/vista-licensing/index.x?pg=1)

Can't say I read anything that Cova went back and forth on, as really I didn't care too much.  Having used the OS a series of times through its Beta, RC, and RTM I was thrill with many aspects of it.  Enough that I was going to purchase it, and purchase it I did.

Also the second image shows something I was not aware of.

The inside...

499 - Damn!

Quote from: Ustauk on January 30, 2007, 10:15:47 AM
Here's Tech - Reports spin on Windows licensing. (http://www.techreport.com/etc/2007q1/vista-licensing/index.x?pg=1)

Quote
One would hope for a measure of magnanimity from Microsoft toward consumers, since it enjoys what is essentially a monopoly on OS software for desktop PCs.

By and large, consumers haven't chafed at the existence of that monopoly because it has provided them with a common computing platform at a reasonable cost without causing any major inconvenience.

But if Redmond's newfound assertiveness shatters the illusion of a "fair use" space for Windows and consumers instead see the reptilian visage of an overeager industry tax collector behind it, they may not appreciate their new reality.

Nice conclusion. :)

I still sorta doubt it.  I think people on this forum would look at alternatives, but for the most part we are all in a very high % when it comes to computer knowledge and comfort.  Heck most of us spend our days slaving out code.

The flip side is the not so computer comfortable person, people like my parents, my fianc?, my brother.  What windows did in giving a common platform for everything is the very thing that they can't live without.  Perhaps they do get angry and look for another platform, but its when they realize that their precious accounting software, video games, office 2003 don't work is when they will come right back.  You can argue all you want about Wine for this, and OO.org for that, but the complexity and comfort go away with each hack and each sacrifice.  Microsoft would have to do something super foolish and horrible for the landscape to change in any real significant form, and im not talking about activation of software, or DRM on high def content.

I recall these same doom and gloom conclusions upon the release of XP, but looking at the RW stats it would appear 77% of the traffic runs through XP and 12.2% through Vista.  That would be pretty darn close to 90% of all the traffic being on a modern windows distro.

Can get the oem version of Ultimate at Memory Express for $239.99 if you wish:

http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=searchproduct&SearchKey=vista%20ultimate

Myself i have read too many DRM doom and gloom reports as well that I'm taking a wait and see for a bit as well. Some site and mags are reporting that you may have to say goodbye to most of your mp3's as well (unless purchased by iTunes or some such place.) Plus, wait for the driver situations to work themselves out like with any new Windows O.S..

OEM is tied to the motherboard of the machine its installed on.  No thanks.  Also with memoryexpress they are pretty sticky about selling it with a full PC.

A season of hockey for one of my kids, or an operating system that will probably require upgrades to my hardware to support...  I'll own Vista when I buy a new computer with it pre-installed, unless it comes with OSX pre-installed.

Quote from: Shayne The Ultimate on January 30, 2007, 12:06:44 PM
I recall these same doom and gloom conclusions upon the release of XP, but looking at the RW stats it would appear 77% of the traffic runs through XP and 12.2% through Vista.  That would be pretty darn close to 90% of all the traffic being on a modern windows distro.

A lot of the traffic here comes during the day from corporate machines - there's no choice in what operating system we use.  <pause>  Hmm, I went looking for the OS stats you posted so that I could figure out if the percentage change outside of work hours, but I can't find them.  Where did you get that info?

http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?config=forums.righteouswrath.com

Not sure you can separate it by time though.  I agree that its corporate machines that count for the majority, but its that same majority that I'm sure pays the larger numbers to Microsoft.

Any who, OSX runs slower on a Mac ;) http://blog.wired.com/cultofmac/2007/01/running_vista_o.html

I still love the whole "I'm gonna buy a mac" argument.  I bought my Apple to install windows on it :P  The best looking, working and functioning laptop I could find.

Quote from: Mags on January 30, 2007, 12:53:00 PM
Myself i have read too many DRM doom and gloom reports as well that I'm taking a wait and see for a bit as well. Some site and mags are reporting that you may have to say goodbye to most of your mp3's as well (unless purchased by iTunes or some such place.)

[Napoleon]Ugh! IDIOTS![/Dynamite]

I have purchased about 20 CDs in the last 12 months, all of which I have used Windows Media Player (or a couple of other apps) to rip out the audio as MP3s (without licensing stuff attached -- they all work on my Creative MP3 player) and I would detest M$ even more if they suddenly crippled all them, or at least prevented them from being played on Vista. Seriously, how stupid can they be? Not every unprotected MP3 file is freakin' pirated! Gosh!

I have installed Vista about a dozen times, not a single mp3 was purchased and each and every time it didn't touch that data.  No pictures, movies, music, isos, games, addresses, emails, etc.  But hey, kudos for posting one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

I love your jumping on it too Darren.  Genius, but hardly surprising.

I would like some sources to that to Mags, please :)

Quote from: Shayne The Ultimate on January 30, 2007, 02:08:28 PM
I have installed Vista about a dozen times, not a single mp3 was purchased and each and every time it didn't touch that data.  No pictures, movies, music, isos, games, addresses, emails, etc.  But hey, kudos for posting one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

I love your jumping on it too Darren.  Genius, but hardly surprising.

I would like some sources to that to Mags, please :)

According to Tom Halfhill former senior editor of Byte magazine and current analyst for Microprocessor Report:

"Microsoft's release of Vista will prompt some users to hoard Windows XP and perhaps even earlier versions of windows, such as Windows 2000 and 98SE. The reason: digital rights management (DRM). When people discover that Vista is foiling their attempts to use or duplicate copyrighted content--- in some cases, even when it should be legal---they will revert to older versions of Windows that don't play Big Brother. Linux is an alternative, at least for a while, but many folks are more comfortable with Windows. With virtualization, it will be easier to keep an older operating system installed on our machines."

Something from this peice: http://www.maximumpc.com/2007/01/10_reasons_you.html

"The fundamental problem is that for certain key low-level operations,
such as video rendering, Vista has been designed to give third parties?the content providers?veto rights over crucial aspects of your system. Do you trust a company like Sony, which infected millions of PCs with a malicious rootkit, with low-level access to your rig?" - which could obviously apply to audio as well."


"PAP and PUMA the audio equivalents of HDCP

With all the new video protections going on, the content providers didn't forget the audio side. The new OS will include Protected Audio Path and Protected User Mode Audio as well. These will work in a similar manner to HDCP, in that they will check to see if certain hardware is in place during the attempted playback of premium content." - Jason Taylor - overclockers.com
  - Now this is assumed to apply to DRM'ed sources, but this is what I mean by wait and see.

Quote from: Shayne The Ultimate on January 30, 2007, 02:08:28 PM
I have installed Vista about a dozen times, not a single mp3 was purchased and each and every time it didn't touch that data.  No pictures, movies, music, isos, games, addresses, emails, etc.  But hey, kudos for posting one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

I love your jumping on it too Darren.  Genius, but hardly surprising.

Quote from: Darren Dirt on January 30, 2007, 02:01:11 PM
I would detest M$ even more if they suddenly crippled all them, or at least prevented them from being played on Vista. Seriously, how stupid can they be?

Apparently, not quite that stupid. Good to hear it's just rumours; I will reserve my dismay for the actual idiocy featured in Vista. ;)

Interesting, I too installed Vista but never did get any issues with DRM and my collection of MP3's and Software... Although it was RC1 so they might have never put that into that version.

Quote from: Shayne The Ultimate on January 30, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
OEM is tied to the motherboard of the machine its installed on.  No thanks.  Also with memoryexpress they are pretty sticky about selling it with a full PC.

the point being, depending on your upgrade cycle, you can buy 2 oem versions for less before the next version of Windows is released. Combine that with the fact that Microsoft has said many times the Vista took much longer then they liked and plan on increasing their release schedules for future OS's, this is a very viable solution for many people.

Memoryexpress is only selling the oem version and linking it right off the main page in a big ad. So, I would be surprised that they are limiting it in this case.

Yep, I talked to a salesperson unless you purchase hardware you should not beable to buy it... that being said. Nothing says they check everyone or all salespeople acutally follow the rules.

Quote from: Adams on January 30, 2007, 03:40:05 PM
Yep, I talked to a salesperson unless you purchase hardware you should not beable to buy it... that being said. Nothing says they check everyone or all salespeople acutally follow the rules.

*Surprised*

And many stores in the city would not be as above board as Memoryexpress and probably price match.

Quote from: Adams on January 30, 2007, 03:40:05 PM
Yep, I talked to a salesperson unless you purchase hardware you should not beable to buy it... that being said. Nothing says they check everyone or all salespeople acutally follow the rules.

Some will allow the OEM hardware purchase to even be a 99 cent cable, from what I've heard...

I hope the guy I know at memory express will let me get an OEM vista ultimate.
If not I will get it off of tigerdirect.ca, I don't think they have any OEM prerequisites as they do not mention it.

You can order OEM copies of windows from Newegg - they bundle a molex splitter with it when they ship it.

Quote from: Shayne The Ultimate on January 30, 2007, 11:12:28 AMCan't say I read anything that Cova went back and forth on, as really I didn't care too much.

I think the same of your comments quite often too - but I keep my mouth shut about it...

Memory Express has OEM versions listed on their software (http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=cat&memx_menu=184&SID=) page, but I don't know if you have to buy any hardware to get it.  The Ultimate versions are out of stock, and it appears each disc contains only the 32 bit or 64 bit version, not both like the retail copy.

Quote from: Ustauk on January 31, 2007, 09:59:47 AM
Memory Express has OEM versions listed on their software (http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=cat&memx_menu=184&SID=) page, but I don't know if you have to buy any hardware to get it.  The Ultimate versions are out of stock, and it appears each disc contains only the 32 bit or 64 bit version, not both like the retail copy.

There are three differences in the OEM edition if you read some of the links posted:
- Key bound to mother board on install
- Only includes 32bit OR 64bit not both versions
- No first level support.

Here's a good article I stumbled across.  And considering how much unprotected HD content I have from recording with my home-built PVR, some of whats in that article is kinda scary.

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Wow, long article, great read.  What I liked best about reading it is that this fella actually appears to have read the Microsoft specifications and is pointing out all of the inherent flaws in them.

Funniest quote:

Quote
Note M: If I do ever want to play back premium content, I'll wait a few years and then buy a $50 Chinese-made set-top player to do it, not a $1000 Windows PC. It's somewhat bizarre that I have to go to communist China in order to find vendors who actually understand the consumer's needs.

Although that quote does no justice to the depth and detail to which this fella considers the security implications of the Vista content protection system.  The picture he paints is a tad bleak, although as he states he's a security analyst and it's his job to think of the possible negative impacts of whatever he's analyzing (which in this case was the Vista content protection system).  The idea that it could shut down a hospital or air traffic control system seems absurd, until you read the whole article to understand how he comes to this conclusion...

Quote from: Thorin on February 05, 2007, 11:21:46 AM
The picture he paints is a tad bleak, although as he states he's a security analyst and it's his job to think of the possible negative impacts of whatever he's analyzing (which in this case was the Vista content protection system).

Maybe that is why I always seem to have a negative view of this type of stuff as well.  I'm not a security analyst, but it is part of my job to analyze the potential points of failure of computer systems from an availability/reliability point of view - downtime costs NAIT money.

Quote from: Cova on February 05, 2007, 09:52:36 AM
Here's a good article I stumbled across.  And considering how much unprotected HD content I have from recording with my home-built PVR, some of whats in that article is kinda scary.

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

"Final Thoughts" (i.e. the conclusion) is where all the low-level heavy painful-to-read details come together into a very scary picture.

The comparison to Apple's iTunes (http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=191000408) DRM/monopoly results is chilling, when you consider how many people will be unquestionably "upgrading" to Vista without being aware of the possible effect on their content (short-term, their current legally-purchased stuff (http://www.geekzone.co.nz/juha/2105), and more importantly *future* industry-wide impact). :o

Quote from: Darren Dirt on February 06, 2007, 12:58:12 PM
"Final Thoughts" (i.e. the conclusion) is where all the low-level heavy painful-to-read details come together into a very scary picture.

The comparison to Apple's iTunes (http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=191000408) DRM/monopoly results is chilling, when you consider how many people will be unquestionably "upgrading" to Vista without being aware of the possible effect on their content (short-term, their current legally-purchased stuff (http://www.geekzone.co.nz/juha/2105), and more importantly *future* industry-wide impact). :o

QuoteIt's chewing up some memory, not that much, but it doesn't register for CPU usage. The module isn't loaded when playing unprotected content.

So if I read this right.
Your own content or content you aquired that does not have content protection will play fine, but if you where a person whom purchased protected content you might be screwed?

So it comes down to boycotting the content again as far as I see it, not the OS that supports everything under the SUN.

I hear too many conflicting reports about whether it is active or not on non-premium content to trust it.  For that matter, I also don't like this whole idea of "premium content" - MPEG is MPEG, just decode it and play it.

Anyways, this blogger apparently has the module taking significant CPU just to play MP3's:

http://www.miraesoft.com/karel/2007/01/23/microsoft-on-content-protection-in-vista/

QuoteFor those of you running Windows Vista, start Windows Media Player and play a random MP3 audio file. Go into Task Manager and look for a process called ?mfpmp.exe? with description ?Media Foundation Protected Pipeline EXE.? Notice how much CPU it uses. On my machine it fluctuates between 10% and 20% CPU time. Other users are seeing even larger consumption of CPU resources, just check out this comment.

Or this quote from the article I linked in my last post:

QuoteThe exact nature of this Media Foundation Protected Pipeline is somewhat mysterious, the executable image is mfpmp.exe but there's no file of that name present in Vista which implies it's being generated on the fly by another executable. The process only shows up with Windows Media Player, not with other players like VLC or WinAMP, and even then only when certain content like MP3s or video is played. It doesn't show up for older/simpler content like WAV files, but then again it does show up for non-protected content.

Though I would think that it's not specific to windows media player, but any direct-show based player (which VLC is not, and I'm unsure on winamp, though I think it is, maybe for video playback only though)

And, whether content-protection is active or not (so even if you are getting your full-resolution video without degredation), your system is still wasting it's resources on @%&# like this:

QuoteIn order to prevent active attacks, device drivers are required to poll the underlying hardware every 30ms for digital outputs and every 150 ms for analog ones to ensure that everything appears kosher. This means that even with nothing else happening in the system, a mass of assorted drivers has to wake up thirty times a second just to ensure that... nothing continues to happen

Ignoring the CPU utilization of that, just the number of context switches back and forth from kernel-space to user-space (those drivers doing the polling will be in kernel-space) will have a significant impact on overall performance.

On a funny-timing note, last night I decided to take my previous system (ancient by most standards) and I'm gonna do a clean install of the not-supported-anymore standby known semi-fondly by some as Win98 on it, so my kids can play games on it.

And media files without worrying about quality degradation. ;) ::)

Quote from: Darren Dirt on February 07, 2007, 02:59:38 PMAnd media files without worrying about quality degradation. ;) ::)

I think the files you'd be playing on Win 98 are already degraded ;)

Though this might be mildly amusing to some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxQm3IsSKAo

Purple text on a pink background - now that offends me.  It just downright hurts the eye's.

Ugg, just got through installing Vista and Office 2007 on my workstation/laptop... WHAT a resource hog! Forget 1Gig of RAM , it demands 2 if you want to run Aero Glass without your apps paging all the time.. :P

Quote from: Lazybones on February 09, 2007, 03:50:14 PM
Ugg, just got through installing Vista and Office 2007 on my workstation/laptop... WHAT a resource hog! Forget 1Gig of RAM , it demands 2 if you want to run Aero Glass without your apps paging all the time.. :P

Hmmm not having that issue here.  My system ram is usually under 40% with many applications running, including O2K7, Virtual Center, IE, and various others.  Spikes every once and while, or if DX stuff kicks in.  And yes I am running Aero.  What is your system rating?  Mine is 3.9 at work.  I would assume it is the video driver for your system (probably nVidia chip?).

Quote from: Melbosa on February 09, 2007, 04:00:07 PM

Quote from: Lazybones on February 09, 2007, 03:50:14 PM
Ugg, just got through installing Vista and Office 2007 on my workstation/laptop... WHAT a resource hog! Forget 1Gig of RAM , it demands 2 if you want to run Aero Glass without your apps paging all the time.. :P

Hmmm not having that issue here.  My system ram is usually under 40% with many applications running, including O2K7, Virtual Center, IE, and various others.  Spikes every once and while, or if DX stuff kicks in.  And yes I am running Aero.  What is your system rating?  Mine is 3.9 at work.  I would assume it is the video driver for your system (probably nVidia chip?).

Probably the embedded Intel video, DWM (Desktop Window manager)  seems to use between 55 and 100 MB of ram.. Beggers can't be choosers, out of all the laptops with ATI video, I ended up with one that has and Intel chip set. At least it has a Core Duo CPU.

Yeah we have 2 guys with HP laptops here running over 2 years old, and Aero just about craters their systems.  Had to have it disabled even to run the OS.  Similar problems as you said, cept that they are running Geforce 4 Gos I believe.

My own experience, having run Ultimate for about 3 months now at work is the lack of support for common applications I use daily.

• Vistual Studio 2005 - Not supported, although you can work with it, until SP1 for the product
• SQL 2005 - Not supported, until the same above
• Active Directory tools - Not available yet, although through some workarounds you can get the W2K3 Admin Pak to install
• PeopleTools - Not Supported period yet
• DirectX 9 - As I posted in another thread, you have to keep a library of DX9 dlls around for your games to work properly if the manufacturer did not include them in the game install dir.  Don't try and put these into your system folders, bad, bad, bad idea.  And gawd, don't try to install DX9 = SYSTEM CRASH
• Virus Scanner - McAfee didn't have a release of a version that worked until end of Jan, although had beta this whole time
• Nero - Had to install Nero Lite, which is a ripped down version of nero (still requires valid key for nero), as Nero from the website required DX9 for their codec support in videos
• Telnet - was disabled by default, but found how to turn it on
• UAC - Took a bit to finally disable the whole thing.  This is a great feature for your home user that doesn't really know much about their system - will protect them from themselves (those accidental click Oks and such), but is a problem right now for 2 reasons: a) If you are an IT person, this is a huge pain and barrier to day to day use; gets in your way, frustrates and as some of you have pointed out is more pain than it is worth.  b) Until all software installers are Vista Aware, UAC may allow certain installers to complete, but not function properly for "your protection"; Firefox and SmartFTP are an example of this. They install, but won't uninstall and throw exceptions due to "missing" files (which UAC virtualized the Reg/File installs as they looked malicious to it).

Being a early adopter, and doing much research on every problem I've come across, I have begun to really understand the new security layers and barriers that Vista has, and how they work, and why.  I think giving it a 6 month grow period and industry adoption, this will start to become a worthy upgrade for business and home environments alike.  For me, now that UAC isn't an issue, and I have a VM for those tools that don't completely work they way they should under Vista, I find it a decent step forward.  There are features I really enjoy as well, in both Vista and Office 2007, which I know would be missed if I ever go back to Windows XP and Office 2003.

Quote from: Melbosa on February 09, 2007, 04:30:37 PM
Yeah we have 2 guys with HP laptops here running over 2 years old, and Aero just about craters their systems.  Had to have it disabled even to run the OS.  Similar problems as you said, cept that they are running Geforce 4 Gos I believe.

Updated my core drivers for almost everything since there where very recent ones posted, seems to have improved things.. my base scrore is 3.1.

Memory use seems to be due to the resolutions I am running combined with the fact I am using dual monitors.

Ugg, day two.. I have decided that Areo Glass is too much for this laptop.. 100MB of memory... Don't bother with Areo if your video card uses shared memory or if you don't have gobs of RAM..

Sad thing is that the system is still VERY sluggish compaired to when it ran XP, other than the video chipset this is a fairly fast laptop.

Windows Experience Index is 3.1 Determined by Lowest sub score
Processor: 4.7
Memory: 4.5
Graphics:3.2
Gaming graphics:3.1
Primary hard disk: 4.7

Windows Vista: more than five years in the making, more than 50 million lines of code. The result? A vista slightly more inspiring than the one over the town dump. The new slogan is: "The 'Wow' Starts Now," and Microsoft touts new features, many filched shamelessly from Apple's Macintosh. But as with every previous version, there's no wow here, not even in ironic quotes. Vista is at best mildly annoying and at worst makes you want to rush to Redmond, Wash. and rip somebody's liver out.

^ no, this isn't a half-satirical review of Vista along the lines of "Television Without Pity (http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/faq.html)".


It's from FORBES.com (http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2007/0226/050.html). :o

Quote from: Darren Dirt on February 12, 2007, 01:21:37 PM
from FORBES.com (http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2007/0226/050.html). :o

:D I suggested to one Windows product manager that if the company were truly serious about security, Vista might offer a simple way to delete files securely and eliminate all traces of identity and passwords so you could safely pass the machine on or sell it years from now. His reply: "Does any other operating system do that?" That tells you all you need to know about Microsoft. The real slogan: "No innovation here."

Alright, although it is nice to read about every bash and hit Vista is going to take, I can only stomache so much negative.  You are all welcome to your opinions, and views, so I won't stiffle that in any thread, but can we at least try and bring this topic back to more constructive and less links to "hate Vista" topics.  Questions, concerns about the OS, information (the good and the bad) if you have experience with it is more what I am interested in seeing, not another article why someone hates the change or can't comprehend what M$ is doing.  Seen enough of that.

I know how you guys feel, and I like seeing Lazy's posts about his experiences.  I've just been noticing a bit of a negative posture with some posts that leave no room for constructive converstation and more lean towards the flame ware beginning all over again.  I don't want to see that again.

Quote from: Melbosa on February 14, 2007, 08:28:17 AM
Alright, although it is nice to read about every bash and hit Vista is going to take, I can only stomache so much negative.  You are all welcome to your opinions, and views, so I won't stiffle that in any thread, but can we at least try and bring this topic back to more constructive and less links to "hate Vista" topics.  Questions, concerns about the OS, information (the good and the bad) if you have experience with it is more what I am interested in seeing, not another article why someone hates the change or can't comprehend what M$ is doing.  Seen enough of that.

I know how you guys feel, and I like seeing Lazy's posts about his experiences.  I've just been noticing a bit of a negative posture with some posts that leave no room for constructive converstation and more lean towards the flame ware beginning all over again.  I don't want to see that again.

Quote from: Yoda
Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

As to Vista, I don't think I'll upgrade for a while.  I stuck with Windows 2000 for a while after XP came out, and will likely do the same here.  I'll probably upgrade when a compelling enough game requires DirectX 10.  I figure it should more stable and refined by then as well.  I don't have anything against Vista, but nothing about it is enough for me to want to upgrade to it.

How about a smilie based review.  :)

I currently rate Vista  :wall: :wall: out of 5.

Well in truth my disgust has mostly washed away into disappointment.

Pros:
- the search built into the start menu is nice
- the side bar works reasonably well
- the improved mobile features are nice, including presentation control for secondary video out, and WiFi control
- local shadow copy services is a great feature

Cons:
- Areo glass requires considerable 3D performance and memory yet yields next to no useabliity benefit over the plain 2D mode.
- Vista does not seems to play well with many current genration programs and services, using the Vista computer managment snap in to remote manage a server or workstation some time results in missing options.
- User Account Control, is not as bad as it was in previous betas, but insanely annoying for even day to day tasks. First time around, 2 prompts for a CD that has auto play. Deleting executables will sometimes trigger an extra prompt as well and that is just normal user tasks. I can't see anyone whom does admin work leaving this feature on, as access to almost every control panel item, system setting, ect triggers the damn thing. It is like surfing without a popup blocker, the damn things kep jumping in your face.
- The organization has of the control panel has been further fragmented, and doesn't even seem to maintain much of the order that was introduced in XP, however you can still dump down to classic mode.


I can't really tell if I have just become a bitter tech, or if the OS is failing me in some way. I would like to think that I am good at adapting to change having moved through DOS, 3.1, 95, 98, 2000 and XP something just feels wrong...

I am not giving up yet, I need more time to be exposed to various features.. I will give it a few weeks or a month and see if my views changed, but so far I would say Vista is more of a WTF than WOW.

Quote from: Melbosa on February 14, 2007, 08:28:17 AMI know how you guys feel, and I like seeing Lazy's posts about his experiences.  I've just been noticing a bit of a negative posture with some posts that leave no room for constructive converstation and more lean towards the flame ware beginning all over again.  I don't want to see that again.

No flame wars starting here.  We all agree to hate Vista :)

LOL Nice Cova.

Quote from: Lazybones on February 14, 2007, 09:26:53 AM

Well in truth my disgust has mostly washed away into disappointment.

Woot, there it is.

Seems like among the reviews and analysis given by those who have done fresh installs or upgrades or have used the preview/RCs for some time previous to this month, disappointment. That's the common theme, even in Microsoft lovers... So many years in the waiting, so many man-hoursYEARS for development shops to redo perfectly working stuff to make it play nice with Vista... and a very underwhelming product is all the drooling consumers have been given.

I would like to see some positive reviews from big magazines and/or tech sites, I really would. Please someone post them if you find them, or see them linked from /. or whatever. I don't want just negative stuff in this thread, either. (Really.)

Here is something that will be nice for people at home who want games for their kids, or want to know what may help make their machines better: 1 & 2.jpg

And 3.jpg shows what software (although this is a game company) can add to their installers to better layout where you go for support or information about accounts etc from an easy layout - user friendly versus just Web links in a folder in the start menu.

The game listed actually has a specific installer for Vista, so you don't even see a program folder in the start menu, as it shows up in the game explorer instead.

I think the system rating, while rather crude and simplistic, gives average joe a simple explaination of where his bottleneck may be in performance, and with the rating right on the game section - an indication why his FPS is choppy to play (system recommended is 4.0 and mine is 3.9 at the lowest - which by the way runs fine).

Some reading today led me to search out when XP SP3 is coming out (since I'll only upgrade to Vista when I buy a new machine, and I won't be buying a new machine anytime soon).  XP SP3 is due out sometime in 2008 (source: http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3639101), and XP Home and Pro are in mainstream support until 2009 and extended support (security updates) until 2014 (source: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221 and http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223).

Which gives me even less reason to move on up to Vista...