Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 share lots of code, NT kernel

[Lazybones]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/20/windows-phone-8-and-windows-8-share-lots-of-code-nt-kernel/

Hmm Microsoft is bringing a common platform to phone, tablet and desktop.... VERY interesting.

[Tom]

I dunno, you know that old saying, jack of all trades, master of none. Look at how Windows 8 on the desktop will be. Do you really want to use your desktop as if it were a tablet? MS thinks you do.

[Mr. Analog]

Who can say how this will pan out, honestly I see a lot of (we'll call them casual users) who are only interested in an appliance. I know for a fact my parents hardly scratch the power they have with their desktops, I suspect there are a lot of other users out there too that would be perfectly happy with only a device like an iPad and a net connection.

Personally I feel that delivering a gimped cross-platform OS to the desktop with metaphors designed for touch-based interface has DANGER written all over it, but we'll see I guess.

[Tom]

Yeah, it can work, for some people. But I imagine a lot of businesses and power users won't switch.

[Mr. Analog]

Yeah, it can work, for some people. But I imagine a lot of businesses and power users won't switch.

Exactly my point, Microsoft seems to be going after a new market at the expense of their existing userbase.

[Thorin]

If the desktop has a multi-touch screen attached to it, it might work.  I don't see Metro as particularly mouse-oriented, but "casual" users will probably be okay with one app running at a time.

I'm trying to imagine how Metro would let me have both the Minecraft window and the JourneyMap window open side-by-side, though.  Or Visual Studio and the MSDN site.  Or any variety of linked programs in two separate windows.

[Mr. Analog]

If you mean multi-monitor support apparently Windows 8 does a better job than 7

[Tom]

If the desktop has a multi-touch screen attached to it, it might work.  I don't see Metro as particularly mouse-oriented, but "casual" users will probably be okay with one app running at a time.

I'm trying to imagine how Metro would let me have both the Minecraft window and the JourneyMap window open side-by-side, though.  Or Visual Studio and the MSDN site.  Or any variety of linked programs in two separate windows.

All I've heard is it /doesn't/ support that. All metro apps are full screen.

[Thorin]

I meant single monitor.  Who carries a second monitor with their laptop these days?  They'll hopefully support multiple windows in "classic" mode, whatever that was called.

[Darren Dirt]

I'm trying to imagine how Metro would let me have both the Minecraft window and the JourneyMap window open side-by-side, though.  Or Visual Studio and the MSDN site.  Or any variety of linked programs in two separate windows.

relax, 2 apps in one screen is a "snap" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/9113630/Microsoft-Windows-8-Consumer-Preview-review.html


/angrysarcasm

[Melbosa]

Please, please, please play with the preview yourself before really laying judgement.  I've had a lot of exposure from TechEd 2012 and have since installed it on a laptop without TouchScreenOnThePad support, and find it actually works rather well.  It has flaws, like the metro apps only working on one monitor at the moment, but I am sure they will be fixed or worked out before RTM.  Remember this is before RC, it just a fancy named Beta product.

It really has some great features for business bodies and home consumers.  I mean everyone knows how to use an App Store these days, which makes development deployment through Corporate Stores way way way way more adoptable than Advertised Programs interfaces of the current products on the market.  This was a huge sell for me.  And your Windows Desktop on a Travel at will USB key, what a play from the Linux world brought to the Windows space.

But it is also the "test" OS release like every second Microsoft Release.  IT WON'T BE POLISHED as nicely as "Windows 9" but it will bring some nice features on the way.  Windows 7 is a Polished version of Vista after all.

[Thorin]

I'm trying to imagine how Metro would let me have both the Minecraft window and the JourneyMap window open side-by-side, though.  Or Visual Studio and the MSDN site.  Or any variety of linked programs in two separate windows.

relax, 2 apps in one screen is a "snap" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/9113630/Microsoft-Windows-8-Consumer-Preview-review.html


/angrysarcasm

Sorry, I must be missing it.  I read that entire article and found no mention of two panes side by side.  Can you point out where the article says how to do that?  Or that it's not possible?

[Lazybones]

Site by side metro apps, the examples here are smaller RSS or Twiter apps but it works with all metro apps from some other things I have seen


http://www.zdnet.com/blog/mobile-news/windows-8-side-by-side-app-viewing-is-a-game-changer/4475

[Darren Dirt]

Please, please, please play with the preview yourself before really laying judgement.  I've had a lot of exposure from TechEd 2012 and have since installed it on a laptop without TouchScreenOnThePad support, and find it actually works rather well.

I'm glad it's pretty and smooth and consistent amongst platform.

But I'm the opposite of glad that this is what will be pushed to OFFICE environments, which is the longterm plan. Yesterday I had about 12 windows open, Eclipse, a couple of Notepads and web browsers, a VMware window, Outlook and Office Communicator and Lotus Notes, and countless times I needed at least 3 visible at one time... precisely and quickly clicking all over the place and moving stuff around with the mouse (windows and contents) like a hyper mad man = what a productive office employee is used to when "in the zone". The new W8 "tile" metaphor < the "desktop/windows" metaphor AINEC.

relax, 2 apps in one screen is a "snap" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/9113630/Microsoft-Windows-8-Consumer-Preview-review.html


/angrysarcasm

Sorry, I must be missing it.  I read that entire article and found no mention of two panes side by side.  Can you point out where the article says how to do that?  Or that it's not possible?

Sorry, to be clear at the top of the article there is a very good video from the Windows 8 folks, I watched it and was surprised to find myself impressed by it at first (I actually recommend it, yes, I am capable of moving past my prejudices ) I liked the way the various functions are available on the sides of the screen, etc. and thought they came up with some neat new stuff, such as the way you can flip through running tasks"apps" is pretty smart and *gasp* intuitive.


But when about halfway through they FINALLY discuss having multiple things visible at once, and some "example scenarios", it was very clear that this would be a deal-breaker for anyone beyond a casual user... having a "main" window with a "snapped" secondary window (sure you can choose which side, and resize the divider, whoopiedeedoo) is imo just not enough for someone who is CREATING in any capacity, anything beyond just viewing/reading and Windows 8 will be an obstacle to productivity, the opposite of what a tool is supposed to be (i.e. an invisible extension of the mortal flesh).

Up until W8 the "windows" metaphor worked because it was like you had a working space (just like in RL) where you could zoom in and out of things, within limiting frames/contexts ("windows") and it harmonized with how our brains work, where we zoom in on something mentally as we focus on the details of a task, but also often need to zoom out and have multiple things side by side for context and comparing/contrasting and of course moving information or "stuff" around between the different contexts (e.g. drag and drop, cut and paste). But now it is a new interface that, though nice and fast and "fun", is not in line with the human users, instead it is like a decision maker said "screw 50 years of analysis and research about usability and human behaviour, we need to make PCs and laptops more like smart phones and tablets/pads because otherwise we're going out of business within 5 years!" and went with the interface currently in vogue, without realizing the reason why it is popular -- because it is a smart and efficient way of using a limited tool/environment that is VERY different from that of a PC/laptop.

imho obv.

[Melbosa]

Wow sounds a lot like the XP to Windows 7 rant you had a while ago...  Sorry the change is going to cause you so much grief

[Darren Dirt]

Wow sounds a lot like the XP to Windows 7 rant you had a while ago...  Sorry the change is going to cause you so much grief

Change isn't the problem, sir. Heck, even for the XP-->W7 unhappiness it wasn't change itself.

It's the reason for the change (or an absence of a logical reason for it). And/or the ability to choose whether or not you go with the "new way of doing things" or maintain the existing, optimal way.

In short, imo Windows 8: A reduction in productivity to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator user = a bad business decision.


When you are used to getting things done at a baseline speed and "purity" level, and the tool is taken away and replaced by something that is prettier and smoother but limits you to 80%, but you can modify that tool to bring back some of the stuff that ALLOWED you to be that efficient, hey that's great, ~90% where you were but at least you had the choice to "shortcut" the new extra layers that get in the way of you doing stuff you used to be able to do QUICKLY.

But when that NEW tool is forcibly replaced by a new tool that completely removes the ability to do stuff that you were used to doing, stuff that you used to do with a tool in a way that was like an AMPLIFICATION of your limited human body, sure that's gonna cause some "grief".



By the looks of things, this drastic metaphor change is more than just a different place to click (tap?) and a removal of window-resizing etc. It's like taking away the "back" button on a web browser, it appears like you're just encouraging users to think a different way, but you're not taking into account WHY the thing is there in the first place, what the human-user-centric reason is for things being the way they are.


After all, why was Windows 95 such a huge leap forward for the consumer masses? Because it put all the options out in front of the user, instead of requiring them to have "secret knowledge" about where stuff is and how to do stuff. It was intuitive, because it was an improvement over other graphical UIs like the Mac and the Amiga/AtariST and all of that was a direct result of research into human behaviour and interface usability at Xerox/SPARCS (or wherever it was).

The W8 "tiling" interface is not based on science, it's based on marketing, it's based on a scared company trying not to die. Then again, maybe it's based on an assumption that people have (for the most part) grown too stupid to be able to focus on more than one (or at maximum two) "windows" at once, so why not make the interface only allow for that anyway... 

[Mr. Analog]

Wow sounds a lot like the XP to Windows 7 rant you had a while ago...  Sorry the change is going to cause you so much grief

I was thinking the same thing, I was thinking about downloading the consumer preview into a VM and give it a shot before passing judgement as well.

I still strongly feel that Windows 7 will be the defacto desktop OS for some time, at least on corporate workstations but as a developer it behoves me to at least stay connected to the latest/greatest even if I think it's @%&# (hello Office).

[Mr. Analog]

Wow sounds a lot like the XP to Windows 7 rant you had a while ago...  Sorry the change is going to cause you so much grief

Change isn't the problem, sir. Heck, even for the XP-->W7 unhappiness it wasn't change itself.

It's the reason for the change (or an absence of a logical reason for it). And/or the ability to choose whether or not you go with the "new way of doing things" or maintain the existing, optimal way.

In short, imo Windows 8: A reduction in productivity to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator user = a bad business decision.


When you are used to getting things done at a baseline speed and "purity" level, and the tool is taken away and replaced by something that is prettier and smoother but limits you to 80%, but you can modify that tool to bring back some of the stuff that ALLOWED you to be that efficient, hey that's great, ~90% where you were but at least you had the choice to "shortcut" the new extra layers that get in the way of you doing stuff you used to be able to do QUICKLY.

But when that NEW tool is forcibly replaced by a new tool that completely removes the ability to do stuff that you were used to doing, stuff that you used to do with a tool in a way that was like an AMPLIFICATION of your limited human body, sure that's gonna cause some "grief".



By the looks of things, this drastic metaphor change is more than just a different place to click (tap?) and a removal of window-resizing etc. It's like taking away the "back" button on a web browser, it appears like you're just encouraging users to think a different way, but you're not taking into account WHY the thing is there in the first place, what the human-user-centric reason is for things being the way they are.


After all, why was Windows 95 such a huge leap forward for the consumer masses? Because it put all the options out in front of the user, instead of requiring them to have "secret knowledge" about where stuff is and how to do stuff. It was intuitive, because it was an improvement over other graphical UIs like the Mac and the Amiga/AtariST and all of that was a direct result of research into human behaviour and interface usability at Xerox/SPARCS (or wherever it was).

The W8 "tiling" interface is not based on science, it's based on marketing, it's based on a scared company trying not to die. Then again, maybe it's based on an assumption that people have (for the most part) grown too stupid to be able to focus on more than one (or at maximum two) "windows" at once, so why not make the interface only allow for that anyway... 

1. You're a software developer: @%&# changes, you have to deal with that, especially if its bad.

2. Windows 8 is part of Microsoft's strategy to enter two new market areas at once: smart phones and tablets ("surface" devices). Windows phones running Metro are actually really nice (yes, I have played with one), not sure about touch devices but if it's anything like the phone experience it will gain some following. The decision to make a one OS to rule them all thing shouldn't be a surprise, Microsoft isn't stupid they see what's been happening with Apple and Google and want to get in on the curve.

Again, I think it's a major gamble on their part to go this route however if it succeeds, @%&# gon' change, if it fails they'll fall back to Win7-ish line of OS design.

I fully expect in a few years that touch interfaces will be as common as LCD monitors are now, this is the direction that things are heading in the Microsoft/Apple/Google dominated world and if you don't like it, shift to Linux as I suspect in a few years it will be the only option that lets you really do things "your way".

[Melbosa]

Mr Analog: I think you are right Windows 7 will be around for a while. And yes please do try the preview, and let us know what you think.  I am curious what people get from it when they actually do try it with their own hands.  I had such doubts of it before TechEd, but after actually playing with it on the phones, tablets, laptops and desktops, I am coming around to the thinking - and can definitely see where my Wife will love the interface.



Darren Dirt: Easy DD. Just wanted to say what seems illogical to you or most IT people may be logical to the world at large.  Sometimes we think that IT drives our desktop experiences or controls; that IT is the reason for why OSs and Software operates in such ways.  When in reality all software and OSs are based on business or consumer need, and while most IT based software is gear towards how IT needs it, the majority of software in the world is based on the masses. Innovation and technological leaps may come from IT and/or need, but like most software development, the design, layout, processing and feel is based on client requirements, not IT.

And I hate to say it, but the masses love their tablets, the layouts, the flavour, the design, the look.  Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc are all reacting to it.  Hence Windows 8, hence change, hence the logic behind the change.

So now I ask - where is this reduction in productivity you see?  Windows 8 still has multiwindow features; the Start Menu is now a Start Tile (which is resizable to fit as much or little on it at once that you desire); the ALT-TAB still exists, and now is complemented by the swipe motion of a tablet; the desktop still exists and you can still pin apps to the taskbar (which frankly I know most IT people do do rather than the start menu); the search for app function still exists, and is in fact easier than the one in Windows 7 as you get more results per search on the screen; etc etc etc.  Productivity will be impacted and the impact will last longer for those without the ability to cope with the changes that are there.

The change is that... CHANGE which is what makes it more difficult to adopt.  But like Windows 7 which had a very significant change over XP, you have to give it a chance before making "informed" judgement.  I have used the product, therefore I can tell you the CHANGE is not as drastic as you think or these reviewers make it to be - and be honest with yourself, most of the reviewers are going to shine hard flashlights on the new changes to drum up readers, as they did with Windows Vista, as they did with Windows 7.  I too do not feel for the Start Tile interface, but the masses will like it, and this is just an example.  Wait till you see the differences in the Windows 2012 Server interfaces if you think the Windows 8 stuff is going to be a hard pill to swallow.

Alternatives: Stick with Windows 7... it will probably last for a few years at least or XP length at most, wait for Windows 9... which may still be the same thing just better made behind the scenes, become a Apple... oh wait same problem there, Switch to Linux... oh wait not easy when everyone else is Windows in your workspace.

What ever you decide is fine with me and I'm sure the rest of us as well.  And if you must rant, continue to do so!  Sometimes it brings out some very good conversation.



Forum Topic: As for the Windows Mobile and Windows 8 sharing same backend stuffs... it might just be a testament to how powerful phones are becoming that they can run the same code as your desktop.

[Thorin]

relax, 2 apps in one screen is a "snap" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/9113630/Microsoft-Windows-8-Consumer-Preview-review.html


/angrysarcasm

Sorry, I must be missing it.  I read that entire article and found no mention of two panes side by side.  Can you point out where the article says how to do that?  Or that it's not possible?

Sorry, to be clear at the top of the article there is a very good video from the Windows 8 folks, I watched it and was surprised to find myself impressed by it at first (I actually recommend it, yes, I am capable of moving past my prejudices ) I liked the way the various functions are available on the sides of the screen, etc. and thought they came up with some neat new stuff, such as the way you can flip through running tasks"apps" is pretty smart and *gasp* intuitive.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.  Flashblock makes it so I don't have to auto-watch all those flash ads and also stops videos that are not ads (are there any these days?).  and I didn't bother playing through all the videos just to try and figure out what you were referring to, as I thought it was the text of the article you were referring to.

Anyway, Lotus Notes open?  You must be a sucker for punishment   As an ex-Lotus Notes user, I can say I understand every reason listed on http://lotusnotessucks.4t.com/.  Nevertheless, people are forced to use it and it will continue to be around, so people will be employed to maintain it and improve it and extend it.

No different than the continuation of Notes usage, Metro will be pushed on people who don't want it because other people do want it.

All that said, I haven't played with it and if it 1) handles multiple windows open side by side on a monitor and 2) doesn't completely bog down on current hardware and 3) I'm buying a new computer when it finally becomes available, I might have Windows 8 on my PC.  Although I'm sure that'll cause me a bunch of pain as I try to set it up for multiple users again.

[Mr. Analog]

I'm actually quite interested to try now, if this Sunday is going to be rainy I now have something to do on the side (well, other than try to recreate bits of Vernon Square in Minecraft)