Someone linked me to this (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776) gem today. Thought it might interest you guys :)
Its a article about a person's experience playing D&D 4
edit: Seems I missed the other two parts, here they are:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799 (part 2)
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811 (part 3)
Interesting
QuoteThere have been a few iterations of rule interpretations that have created oddities, but the playtesting did an incredible job of tweaking those down to make sense. Hell, there was an interpretation of Stealth early on that allowed you to use another player to hide, then jump out and gain COMBAT ADVANTAGE (the 4E version of catching a character flat footed.) This led to a series of comments (and jokes) about a Halfling Rogue in the fighters backpack and ultimately led to a note from the lead developer that read “It shouldn’t work like that. We’ll fix it.” They did.
Aww, I'd have loved to try that ;D That sounds like something Thorne would do.
Thank you, that was an awesome find. The guy is definitely very excited about 4th edition.
I do like some of the changes we discussed today at lunch Thorin, we'll see how it pans out over the next couple of years I guess.
ENWorld has a great collection of all the D&D 4th Edition news here: http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e
However, what I found particularly useful was this PDF compiled from handouts at the D&D Experience and things posted on the web (Quickstart Rules start on page 16):
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/Monsters%20&%20More%20(4th%20Edition).pdf
Here's the Players Pre-4th Edition Handbook: http://dnd4.com/phb
This has basically been compiled from released content over the last six months, I think.
Hah, PDFs of the core books are available for download already!
They're not supposed to come out for another five days...
Quote from: Thorin on June 01, 2008, 07:14:53 PM
Hah, PDFs of the core books are available for download already!
They're not supposed to come out for another five days...
Gotta luv nerd culture...
So, the HEALBOT/BANDAID is no longer... There is still a class called "Cleric", but I would not be able to rebuild Aerindra in 4.0. On the other hand, every character can use up "healing surges" to heal themselves between combats, so the HEALBOT/BANDAID is no longer necessary.
One thing's for sure, this AIN'T YOUR DADDY'S D&D! If I were to compare this to Windows...
AD&D 2.x - Windows 2000
D&D 3.x - Windows XP (better than Windows 2000, but took a while to convince people to switch)
D&D 4.0 - MacOS X
Without having played any major MMORPGs but having seen how they're typically structured, I gotta say, this appears to have a *lot* of MMO influences... Especially in having at-will, per-encounter, and daily special abilities.
Does that make GURPS the Linux kernel?
I do like that they've added a default setting and starting town to the DM's Guide. They haven't done that since the red-boxed Basic and blue-boxed Expert sets for original D&D. Too bad they didn't include any rules for quickly resolving army battles or getting land, though...
I looked back at the old Rules Cyclopedia (compiles the red-boxed Basic, blue-boxed Expert, aqua-boxed Companion, and black-boxed Master sets into one hardcover, including a detailed wilderness hex map of the Known World), and the rules covering becoming a landowner with peasants that work the farms and stuff only take, like, four and a half pages. Including figuring out whether the peasants rise up against you this month!
But back to what I was saying, I like that they added the town of Fallcrest to the DM's Guide, and that they included a description of Nentir Vale, which is the area surrounding Fallcrest.
And as much as the basic engine for the game has completely changed, I see great potential for fun in it...
Oh, here's an interesting bit: You start off at the beginning of the day with 1 action point. When you reach a "milestone", you gain another action point. A "milestone" is reached every time you finish two average encounters (and there's detail on Skill Challenges, a non-combat type of encounter). If you take an "extended rest", then your action point total resets to 1. The idea here is that the action points somewhat replace the abilities you use up during encounters, so hopefully you'll keep adventuring instead of taking a rest.
Here's another interesting bit: You have "at-will" powers that you can use as many times as you want. You have "per-encounter" powers that you can use once per encounter. You have "daily" powers that you can use once per day. Per-encounter powers reset when you take a "short rest" (5 minutes). You can take as many short rests per day as you want. Daily powers reset when you take an "extended rest" (6 hours, I think). You cannot take an extended rest if you've already taken an extended rest within the last 12 hours.
Here's another interesting bit: You have "healing surges", which when you use them cause you to regain 25% of your hit points. Using a healing surge is a standard action. More combat-focused characters have more healing surges per day than others. This means that characters are much more self-reliant than before, with a healbot/bandaid simply not being necessary anymore.
Here's an excerpt about Fallcrest: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080526a
And the map from that article:
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4E_fallcrest1.jpg) (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4E_fallcrest1.jpg)
Canned adventures, bleh, (http://forums.righteouswrath.com/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif)
Hah, back in March they made a cake! To celebrate 4E going to the printers...
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/news_20080319_1.jpg) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080319a)
Quote from: Thorin on June 02, 2008, 11:40:05 AM
Hah, back in March they made a cake! To celebrate 4E going to the printers...
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/news_20080319_1.jpg) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080319a)
Lots of covers from Dragon magazine there.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 02, 2008, 11:39:07 AM
Canned adventures, bleh, (http://forums.righteouswrath.com/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif)
Fallcrest isn't a canned adventure, just a sample town to start adventuring in. I like that they included a starting town, just like I liked that the old Expert rules had Threshold as a starting town. Say what you will about it being canned, but the Known World (later renamed Mystara) had a huge variety of nations within it. There were maybe twenty supplements for the Known World, with adventure modules set all over it. It was nice for starting DMs to be able to just pick up a booklet and start DMing.
Quote from: Thorin on June 02, 2008, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 02, 2008, 11:39:07 AM
Canned adventures, bleh, (http://forums.righteouswrath.com/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif)
Fallcrest isn't a canned adventure, just a sample town to start adventuring in. I like that they included a starting town, just like I liked that the old Expert rules had Threshold as a starting town. Say what you will about it being canned, but the Known World (later renamed Mystara) had a huge variety of nations within it. There were maybe twenty supplements for the Known World, with adventure modules set all over it. It was nice for starting DMs to be able to just pick up a booklet and start DMing.
Good for newbies I guess.
(http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2008-06-04.jpg)
Hah!
(http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2008-04-23.jpg)
ROFLMAO.... heeeeeeeeeeey!!
This guy does several comics and plays D&D like crazy. Sounds like he really doesn't like it: http://www.misfile.com/?page=1008 (read the text under the comic, not the comic itself - the comic's got nothing to do with D&D)
Quote
I'm going to preface this by saying that I've been playing D&D for over 20 years now. I've played every edition from Basic, AD&D, 2nd edition, 3.0, and 3.5. I've played more other systems than I care to remember, and I've played in bad games with people I don't like just to be able to play. That being said... I think I hate 4th edition.
I was initially pissed off that 4th edition was coming out so soon after 3rd. Wizards of the coast argues that it's been 8 years since edition 3.0, but neglect to point out that they hit us with 3.5 in the middle of that 8 year period and forced us to re-buy all the core rule books, so in reality it's only been a few years since the last edition. That being said, I was willing to give it a chance. I started hearing things about the new edition I didn't like. Messing with the core races and classes and other things that made it feel a bit "un-D&D" to me. I was pretty down on the whole thing when I picked up the preview books. Having read the previews, I actually became cautiously optimistic. They changes were explained and seemed less radical than before and I decided to withhold any further judgment until I'd actually PLAYED the new edition. I bought my new PHB on Thursday and started to become wary once again. The whole thing seems a bit too "video gamey" in feel to me. It felt difficult to create a unique character, and I felt as thought Clerics had lost their uniqueness and purpose and Arcane caster has been TOTALLY screwed. Still, I reserved judgment.
On Saturday, I played it, and my worst fears were confirmed. The party Cleric seemed to have no purpose. There was no reason to bother playing a wizard at all. Later, my feelings on the video game feel of $e were confirmed by the owner of the hobby shop, who said Wizards was trying to win over people from the MMORPG crowd. The pen and paper version of D&D is not a video game. It will never be a video game. There is already a D&D video game. Pen and paper games will never attract swaths of video gamers no matter how many MMORPG terms like tank and healer you adjust in the books. As far as I'm concerned, Wizards is merely alienating their core supporters in a misguided attempt to pursue a group they cannot win over.
I will happily continue playing 3.5 for the foreseeable future. Luckily, in the great "Wizards of the Coast: Quest for more money", I'm sure they'll spring version 4.5 on us in two years time, and hopefully some of these glaring issues will be addressed. Better yet, perhaps they'll scrap most of the concepts in 4.0 in their entirely and make a system that is fun to play and that appeals to people who actually PLAY their games rather than just computer gamers.
Wizards is fairly unashamed of trying to get new market share and has made several allusions to WOW (at least from my readings). Whether this is a good or bad thing I cannot say.
I can't say much about 4e yet because I haven't read the books, but there are some things which I've read that make me scratch my head, like how saving throws work (the example I read this morning stated that under the 4e rules if you fall off a cliff the cliff makes the saving throw, not you. Is that right?).
The goal for D&D has been two fold this time around:
-Simplification
-Attracting video gamers
The Game Day on Saturday has created a lot of new interest in D&D (which is good IMHO) but the face of the game has changed. For good or ill only time will tell...
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 09, 2008, 09:33:23 AM
Wizards is fairly unashamed of trying to get new market share and has made several allusions to WOW (at least from my readings). Whether this is a good or bad thing I cannot say.
All the allusions to WOW have been by people not employed by WoTC, as far as I've read. Wizards' employees appear to choose their words really carefully not to brand D&D4 as paper-WoW.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 09, 2008, 09:33:23 AM
I can't say much about 4e yet because I haven't read the books, but there are some things which I've read that make me scratch my head, like how saving throws work (the example I read this morning stated that under the 4e rules if you fall off a cliff the cliff makes the saving throw, not you. Is that right?).
In D&D3, you would make a Balance check to keep from falling off the cliff.
In D&D4, you would make an Athletics check (I think?) to keep from falling off the cliff.
In D&D3, you would take 1d6 damage per 10' fallen.
In D&D4, you would take 1d6 damage per 10' fallen.
So no, there's no saving throw related to cliffs. A better example is the pit trap:
In D&D3, you would make a Reflex save against a DC20 to keep from falling in the pit.
In D&D4, the pit trap would roll an attack against your Reflex defense to try and get you to fall in the pit.
At least, that's how I *think* it works in D&D4, I've only skimmed the Traps section. In either case, it's a d20 rolled against a static number - in D&D3 the static number is the DC, in D&D4 the static number is your Reflex defense score.
edit: noticed that all my text was inside a quote - broke it out for readability
So, has anyone else started reading the D&D4 books?
There are errata posted for the books, although they are surprisingly short thus far.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates
Nerfed my character a little, though :(
I know at least one person (looks at Tonnica) has started looking at the books. Anyone else? I'm interested in opinions based on what people have read...
Have... to... find... time... to... read... stuff
In all seriousness, I'll probably look at it tonight while I do contract work (installs of OSs).
Quote from: Melbosa on July 16, 2008, 04:02:39 PM
Have... to... find... time... to... read... stuff
Less time with screens = more time with books. Although I suppose in this case it's a book being read on a screen...
I actually purchased the PHB on the weekend and started reading through. Im not very far in (just got to the classes chapter) but i do like what i know about so far.
Powers: at-will, encounter, daily <-- simplified, yes "video gamey" almost like Diablo, but i think i will enjoy this change
Races: I think races in 4e may have a bigger affect on your character than before
Little disappointed in the lack of a Druid class so far. ITs painfully clear that WOTC plans on raping me for $$$ in the near future with additional PHB's that add the *missing* classes and races.
I've actually been listening to some Podcasts of 4e D&D sessions being played. A) It gives you a great idea of how 4e plays and B) It?s interesting to hear how a WOTC professional DM's a game. In those Podcasts the game seems to be very action packed.
It?s a little disappointing to read about that guy above who feels wizards are useless, i was actually quite pumped about rolling a wizard. Wonder what he sees that I don?t? He says he doesn?t like 4e, but doesn?t go into any detail other than ?it?s not like 3e?. I guess i might just be one of those video gamers he was bitching about :P
From what I've been reading/hearing the flow of play is much less impeded by game mechanics in fact, from the sounds of things other than some suspension of (fantasy) disbelief, the game mechanics assist players in adventuring.
If I wasn't so heavily invested in 3e right now I'd take a look, but I want to get my current group at least to level 10 before even thinking about migration.
Also, good to see you posting again man.
I've played three sessions now, and one thing's for sure - the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure is action-packed! Every combat, someone almost dies. But then, healing back to full is much easier and much less costly in party treasure than before.
There has been much to-do about being able to create your own style of Wizard/Paladin/Rogue/whatever, but from what I've seen there's actually only a couple of good choices for the at-will powers.
3.x allowed for much more character customization, although trying to customize a character in a non-optimal way would make your character almost useless when compared to an optimized character.
4.0 allows for much less character customization, but even if you make a couple bad choices your character doesn't fall too far behind in ability.
That's the big difference for me.
An' yeah, there'll be a PHB2 by June of next year, if you can believe the rumours.
Quote from: Thorin on July 29, 2008, 08:56:51 AMAn' yeah, there'll be a PHB2 by June of next year, if you can believe the rumours.
Yeah, this makes me throw up a little inside and swallow it :-[
WOTC has made it no secret that they want to pump you for as much $$$ as possible. Thank god for pirated PDFs, actually I've been making it a habit to bring my laptop to gamming sessions. I find having the PDF up on the screen with a bunch of bookmarks is a much quicker way of finding material than thumbing through a book. Don?t get me wrong, i still like having a hard copy of the PHB to take on the Bus and what not, but for playing i prefer the PDF.
And with WOTC planning on releasing new books every year, the only way folks can keep up is to get the PDF's.
I understand your woes with 3e Mr. A, it really is a treadmill. Although it sounds like you have nothing to lose by hanging back for a bit. A) Expect 3e stuff to get even cheaper, and B) Jump into 4e after they had a few round of PHBs, let them work out the bugs and skip the money sink of early incomplete books.
I have pretty much all the books I need to finish my campaign, now it's just finding the time :D
Quote from: TheDruid on July 29, 2008, 10:14:32 AM
I've been making it a habit to bring my laptop to gamming sessions.
The group I got asked to join to play 4th edition with, one of the players brought a laptop to the table. The problem was that he started chatting and then facebooking and then downloading half-naked pictures of some girl he's dating. Not
at all conducive to playing D&D with your friends!
Anyway, I've found that I haven't put a lot of thought or background into my 4th edition character, but whether that's because of the group of people I'm playing with or the obvious focus on combat of the Keep on the Shadowfell adventure, I'm not sure.
Frickin' kobolds and their "Shifty" reaction power, where as soon as you shift (used to be called 5-foot step) away from them they get to shift with you. Makes it hard for the Wizard to get away and uses ranged magic.
Quote from: Thorin on July 29, 2008, 02:09:27 PM
Frickin' kobolds and their "Shifty" reaction power, where as soon as you shift (used to be called 5-foot step) away from them they get to shift with you. Makes it hard for the Wizard to get away and uses ranged magic.
That new high elf race has that racial teleport ability. Basically that was my plan for a char, go Eladrin Wizard with the Fey Step power.
To bad about buddy abusing his privileges with the laptop. I hope the DM put a stop to it right away. If used constructively i found a laptop excellent for PDF access. Using OneNote to take adventure notes and keep power snip-its handy, and excel spreadsheets to assist with calculations.
Yeah, pretty much anyone who wants to be a Wizard chooses Eladrin as their race. It's the only one that lets you boost your Int, except for Human. But Human isn't as good as they make it out to be... Only one stat gets a bonus, you get an extra at-will power (but you can still only do one thing per round!), you get a bonus to all three saving throws. But Eladrin gets a bonus to both Int and Dex, gets that wicked per-encounter Fey Step teleport, and still gets a bonus to one of their saves.
Honestly, if one was trying to make the best Wizard, one would always pick Eladrin.
Me, I made a Halfling Paladin, not at all the best race for the class. But I wanted to be different.
So from my short stint with 4th edition (seven sessions, I think?), I can honestly say that I do like the ruleset. Simple, pretty balanced, hard to break. As the DM said, "It's a game of inches". Without house rules it's _really_ hard to make characters that are significantly better or worse than each other.
In fact, if I were to start a new campaign I might actually suggest using the 4th edition rules!