So, with the recent addition of Tonnica on my network I've noticed some problems in the realm of connection management. I have a web server which, at times, can have a good number of incoming requests thought this is usually manageable and fairly predictable usage on the other hand there are two of us both using P2P software (eMule, Azureus, etc) and browsing fairly link active sites (frequently I will have more than 15 browser tabs open at a time) this kind of usage surges wildly day to day. Obviously adding another web-heavy user is going to cause strain on any home network and I'm reasonably sure it's not the Shaw line causing my problems it's just the sheer volume of connections my trusty old WRT54G (v5.0, FYI) has to deal with.
Now there are a world of options out there including throttling the number of open connections by using QoS features on the router, upgrading to a router with more connection handling ability or using a different BIOS to have more control over the processing of the connections.
To help me solve this dilemma you can:
- Show me analysis tools I can use to diagnose my problem
- Help me find and use a good alternate BIOS
- Recommend a beefier router
P.S. Please do not offer to do this for me, I'm looking for information on this subject to bring my networking skills back up to speed so a starting point that might lead to a lot of research on my side is acceptable. I'm looking for the "why"
and the "how" on this problem ;)
I have similar connection traffic and QoS issues on my end. Currently I have a WRT54GS router (S for the extra ram in the unit) and use Hyperwrt hacked BIOS for the connection management and QoS functionality.
Only way I determined that I needed better service support from my router was checking my connection logs on my web servers/ftp server and correlating that with my disruption times (running a lot of P2P at the time, and FTP traffic). Then through trial and error found the best fit for my environment. Lazy can give you a better understanding about multiple P2P client traffic off one network, and how to handle that better (after all I am only one user on my network, with multiple servers providing a variety of internet services, plus my own personal traffic needs).
I find I can't use any of the embeded routers. They just aren't beefy enough. (I easily crash and hang them, multiple times a day)
I now use pfSense on my firewall, and its setup is very slick. Doesn't require powerfull hardware, and is easy to setup. But it needs a pc of sorts to run on (doesn't require a HD, much ram, or much cpu).
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 03:03:01 PM
I find I can't use any of the embeded routers. They just aren't beefy enough. (I easily crash and hang them, multiple times a day)
I now use pfSense on my firewall, and its setup is very slick. Doesn't require powerfull hardware, and is easy to setup. But it needs a pc of sorts to run on (doesn't require a HD, much ram, or much cpu).
I have no room for additional machines, what I'm looking at currently is something like this (http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=file&memx_menu=EmbedProductDetail.php&DisplayProductID=9227&SID=).
Or possibly even going dual modem for MOAR bandwidth (but we'll see about that).
The important bits of any home/soho/office router is the amount of memory it has and secondary, cpu power. If it has little ram, you're going to hit a connection limit quite soon.
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 03:51:30 PM
The important bits of any home/soho/office router is the amount of memory it has and secondary, cpu power. If it has little ram, you're going to hit a connection limit quite soon.
That's why I'm doing research now. If what I choose can run a small business network reliably then I should be ok.
Oh, just saw this on Ars:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070529-yoggie-pico-offers-a-linux-based-firewall-inside-a-usb-key.html
That looks like a great firewall solution :) Just turn off all the firewalling and other stuff in your current router, and all should be fine :)
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 04:00:04 PM
Oh, just saw this on Ars:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070529-yoggie-pico-offers-a-linux-based-firewall-inside-a-usb-key.html
That looks like a great firewall solution :) Just turn off all the firewalling and other stuff in your current router, and all should be fine :)
Well, I'd be more impressed if it didn't just hijack the WinXP TCP/IP stack. :-/
I'll figure something out. Maybe put Tonnica in the DMZ lol
The stack in the usb stick is much better imo. And it'd all run on its own cpu, offloading all networking to the usb stick, saving cpu time. The only thing I'd worry about is USB2 throughput.
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 04:08:31 PM
The stack in the usb stick is much better imo. And it'd all run on its own cpu, offloading all networking to the usb stick, saving cpu time. The only thing I'd worry about is USB2 throughput.
But then I'd have to run another machine, since I don't really want DHCP running on the same server as IIS.
That soho router you posted looks decent. though I didn't look up any of the actual specs.
I will come over and mode your firmware for you like. The WRT you have is the lower memory edition, so that could be a problem.
I am somewhat sure bandwidth (down link) is not a problem, unless your hosted content is hosing your system (up link), in which case we can adjust QoS to your server specifically so that you can still browse.
I need to take a run to Memory Express sometime this week to buy a new MP3 player, once I've looked around I might just fork over the $$$ and buy a more rugged router.
I was also discussing the idea of getting a second cable modem with Tonnica today, between the two of us the cost is negligible and seeing the price of the multi-WAN / dual mode capable routers it might be something to consider...
Oh the joys of profit share!
Tom, wants to make a MemX run as well. Maybe we should car pool.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 29, 2007, 08:53:32 PM
Tom, wants to make a MemX run as well. Maybe we should car pool.
Yay! Nerd Shopping Spree! LOL :D
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 29, 2007, 08:47:55 PM
I was also discussing the idea of getting a second cable modem with Tonnica today, between the two of us the cost is negligible and seeing the price of the multi-WAN / dual mode capable routers it might be something to consider...
I highly double you are saturating your down link, before purchasing more lines you should really try and find out where you are using up the bandwidth, I could probably come over and run some test on your traffic use. If you are saturating your uplink having separate connections for each of you might do the trick, but I would be interested in what is saturating the link.
Melbosa runs a bunch of systems on 1 linksys, and I share my link with someone one a linksys so I know a little about bandwidth use. The QoS features in the standard firmware stink, but QoS can't save you from some problems.
QuoteYay! Nerd Shopping Spree! LOL Cheesy
;D
Proper QoS will fix any upstream saturation problems. Since I installed pfSense, I haven't had any issues with something using too much bandwidth. OpenBSD's "pf" packet filter framework is second to none. And pfSense's web gui is also second to none.
Course I've had less problems since upgrading to Shaw's "Ent" plan, all your traffic over Shaw's network is QoSed, so you get priority over regular home users :)
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 09:28:42 PM
QuoteYay! Nerd Shopping Spree! LOL Cheesy
;D
Proper QoS will fix any upstream saturation problems. Since I installed pfSense, I haven't had any issues with something using too much bandwidth. OpenBSD's "pf" packet filter framework is second to none. And pfSense's web gui is also second to none.
Course I've had less problems since upgrading to Shaw's "Ent" plan, all your traffic over Shaw's network is QoSed, so you get priority over regular home users :)
QoS does not solve connection limiting. When using a NAT router your connection tracking limit is determined by the amount of ram on your device. Since you are running pfSense on a PC you probably have plenty of ram, however if Mr. A goes for another off the shelf device, he may run into problems again if all his users are using P2P at the same time and the Router is not configured to deal with connection limits correctly.
Quite true, but it seemed as if everyone was talking about bandwidth, not connection limits. A good business router aught to have plenty of ram.
One thing to note, if it is a connection limit problem, tell the router to not cache/remember the connections for very long. The default is several minutes or more, which in p2p time, thats like an age, so it can quickly use up all available memory.
Quote from: Tom on May 29, 2007, 10:56:02 PM
Quite true, but it seemed as if everyone was talking about bandwidth, not connection limits. A good business router aught to have plenty of ram.
One thing to note, if it is a connection limit problem, tell the router to not cache/remember the connections for very long. The default is several minutes or more, which in p2p time, thats like an age, so it can quickly use up all available memory.
This can be done using 3rd party firmware on the Linksys, however first party firmware on most home/soho routers do not seem to let you tweak things at that level. Also the amount of RAM in most off the shelf routers is about the same really, they seem to differ more in processing power and software more than anything, with a few exceptions...
I would assume that a "Pro" model router (like the one Mr A mentioned) would have more ram, to partially justify the price they charge to business's ;)
But yeah, I'd really like to get the cpu fan in my firewall replaced sooner rather than later, I can hear it from my room :( (yes its been cleaned). 50 feet away :o A couple other cpu fans of mine are getting loud as well, and I need to grab a 80x80 fan thats 15mm or less thick. My dad's new case was designed by a monkey. The HD won't fit at the same time as the case fan (if its a standard 2cm thick unit), and there is only one 3.5" bay, so its a HD, or Floppy, not both.
Sorry I have to agree with Lazy on this one. I don't think Mr. A's traffic is any higher than mine. DC5AB alone on my network does over 2GB+ of web traffic a month (last time I checked). And I do more than 200GB on average in a month down (and a lot is torrents which I share back up). Plus FTP, P2P, XBox 360 Online, PS3 Online, and play MMOs. I can't see needing more than what I have to meet your needs.
As Lazy said, it's all about Connection Management and Bandwidth QoS. Properly setup, sure your FTP speeds are hindered, but your websites publish fine. I've looked into adding another computer to the network to do this (back to good old clark connect), and possibly going the two modem route, but I don't have enough connections to warrent a second stream (load balancing works on connection in is connection out - otherwise you run into mis-diagnosed spoofing or look like a bot from the other end).
Well, all I know is that when I unplug my router and plug it back in everything goes back to normal. When I connect directly to the 'net with just my machine (and software firewall haha) everything is normal. When I have the router in there things get slow over time, but not every day. Yesterday for example was just fine for P2P and surfing, but a couple of days ago I could barely get connection.
If we look, DC5AB takes in roughly 230 hits a day: http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=www.dc5ab.com&framename=index (http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=www.dc5ab.com&framename=index)
RW takes roughly 50 hits: http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=forums.righteouswrath.com&framename=index (http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=forums.righteouswrath.com&framename=index)
And my other websites average about 25-30 hits a day combined. DC5AB has huge pictures that are shared out as well from their Gallery. And that plus my own needs, and still you guys can surf this webserver just fine.
Wow just noticed DC5AB did 6GB of traffic last month... good thing Cova put in some changes to prevent off site image linking.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 08:32:22 AM
Well, all I know is that when I unplug my router and plug it back in everything goes back to normal. When I connect directly to the 'net with just my machine (and software firewall haha) everything is normal. When I have the router in there things get slow over time, but not every day. Yesterday for example was just fine for P2P and surfing, but a couple of days ago I could barely get connection.
Ahhh now this sounds like a dieing router. This I have seen before, with D-Link and Linksys. It might have over heated once or twice and now is having computation issues over time. A flash of the firmware might fix it - although this isn't a fix for an over heat, but sometimes does the trick.
Otherwise, with the cost of routers, I even bought a spare for home encase this started for me and I could swap out at 2 AM if need be.
What did you ISP say when you contacted them?
Quote from: Melbosa on May 30, 2007, 08:36:14 AM
What did you ISP say when you contacted them?
They said the line tested clean, I'm sure it's just the router. I do a surprising amount of traffic on my web server. While I don't have statistics on hand here I do know that I share a lot of image galleries (for disc golf and wallpaper).
If you do the type of traffic that DC5AB does on images, then you're doing awsome for a small little operation like you and I have in our houses! 8)
Quote from: Melbosa on May 30, 2007, 09:00:44 AM
If you do the type of traffic that DC5AB does on images, then you're doing awsome for a small little operation like you and I have in our houses! 8)
Just to illustrate the kind of traffic that crawls VGER, a search for "Nadesico (http://images.google.ca/images?client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=nadesico&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)" on Google Images yields my server in the first page, within the first 15 results.
Maybe I should throttle my web server HTTP bandwidth haha.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 08:32:22 AM
Well, all I know is that when I unplug my router and plug it back in everything goes back to normal. When I connect directly to the 'net with just my machine (and software firewall haha) everything is normal. When I have the router in there things get slow over time, but not every day. Yesterday for example was just fine for P2P and surfing, but a couple of days ago I could barely get connection.
Actually this sounds exactly like what happens when the default firmware runs out of memory because it is not purging old connections.
In some revisions of the firmware the router just reboots.
Alternatively it could be a hardware problem where the unit is over heating but they run hot anyway.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 09:03:33 AM
Just to illustrate the kind of traffic that crawls VGER, a search for "Nadesico (http://images.google.ca/images?client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=nadesico&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)" on Google Images yields my server in the first page, within the first 15 results.
Maybe I should throttle my web server HTTP bandwidth haha.
Speaking of Nadesico... did you ever get the movie back or a new one? Still haven't seen it.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 30, 2007, 09:04:05 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 08:32:22 AM
Well, all I know is that when I unplug my router and plug it back in everything goes back to normal. When I connect directly to the 'net with just my machine (and software firewall haha) everything is normal. When I have the router in there things get slow over time, but not every day. Yesterday for example was just fine for P2P and surfing, but a couple of days ago I could barely get connection.
Actually this sounds exactly like what happens when the default firmware runs out of memory because it is not purging old connections.
In some revisions of the firmware the router just reboots.
Alternatively it could be a hardware problem where the unit is over heating but they run hot anyway.
I don't think it's overheating; during the day I leave the air conditioner on and my condo is a comfy 22?C (31% humidity).
I have the latest firmware installed and I even tried reverting to older firmware (with similar results). I'll do some more checking today, but I think I'll just throw some money at this problem (puts on PHB)...
Quote from: Melbosa on May 30, 2007, 09:06:29 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 09:03:33 AM
Just to illustrate the kind of traffic that crawls VGER, a search for "Nadesico (http://images.google.ca/images?client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=nadesico&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)" on Google Images yields my server in the first page, within the first 15 results.
Maybe I should throttle my web server HTTP bandwidth haha.
Speaking of Nadesico... did you ever get the movie back or a new one? Still haven't seen it.
It's in the box, next to the ark of the covenant (I think). When I unpack it we'll have a Nadesco night!
Well if have decided to get a new one, I would be interested in the old one.. They are great for connecting wireless bridges across the house
Quote from: Melbosa on May 30, 2007, 08:33:33 AM
If we look, DC5AB takes in roughly 230 hits a day: http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=www.dc5ab.com&framename=index (http://misc.righteouswrath.com/awstats/awstats.pl?month=04&year=2007&output=main&config=www.dc5ab.com&framename=index)
Why ya gotta make DC5AB look so small... It averages roughly 20000 hits per day, in a little over 3000 page-views, for almost 250 visitors.
As for the routing problems - you've already said you don't want to use a PC for it, and that pretty much limits my suggestions.
Quote from: Cova on May 30, 2007, 10:27:20 AM
As for the routing problems - you've already said you don't want to use a PC for it, and that pretty much limits my suggestions.
A PC just wouldn't fit in my current floor plan etc. If I can get an appliance for under $200 that will work for me I think it's just as well.
Quote from: Cova on May 30, 2007, 10:27:20 AM
Why ya gotta make DC5AB look so small... It averages roughly 20000 hits per day, in a little over 3000 page-views, for almost 250 visitors.
As for the routing problems - you've already said you don't want to use a PC for it, and that pretty much limits my suggestions.
hehe, Yeah I meant to put in Unique Vistor per day, but for some reason forgot... just about the same time when our Email System here at work decided to lock up, so I was posting that fast.
Jeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
QuoteJeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
Good to hear! Seemed worth the extra 10-20 for the business model :)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 10:48:06 PM
Jeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
You going to share which model with us all? Or is this a big secret :P?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 10:48:06 PM
Jeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
Does this mean you have a wirless router for sale?
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2007, 07:48:08 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 10:48:06 PM
Jeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
You going to share which model with us all? Or is this a big secret :P?
Y'know I picked this one (http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=file&memx_menu=EmbedProductDetail.php&DisplayProductID=9227&SID=) (D-Link DI-724GU Wireless 108G Gigabit Office Router) sort of at random but since I did I started doing some research it had everything I wanted and a lot of good reviews, so I picked it up yesterday ($180).
- Super easy to install
- MIND-BOGGLINGLY nice firmware interface
- QoS easy to administrate
- Nice, strong Wi-Fi signal
- It also has a built in print server (via USB)
Quote from: Ustauk on May 31, 2007, 08:51:44 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 30, 2007, 10:48:06 PM
Jeez this router is nice! I am blown away!
Does this mean you have a wirless router for sale?
Well, two things naturally:
- It's spoken for already (Lazy?) as a Wi-Fi node
- For a firewall router it's @%&#E
When I say it was @%&#, I mean it. The old WRT54G (v1.0) was awesome the replacement I bought after the power died on the old one (v5.0) sucked ass, it would tank on what I would think was an acceptable number of connections and the administration / BIOS wasn't very good (in comparison to the D-Link). I mean, if I wanted to open the port for MSN (for example) sure the Linksys had the ability to set up "applications" but they were routed to particular IPs.
At any rate, if you want to see muh new router in action, hit my website or my FTP.
If you want a wrt these days, make sure its a WRT54GL. comes with more ram and flash than any of the others (because its the replacement for the old WRG54G, cause people got mad when they changed to VxWorks and halved the ram+flash).