A couple of years ago, I bought two identical Dells with the hope that my family would be able to switch between them seamlessly. This has mostly worked, but we still found that the adults favoured one or the other computer. Then we started running low on space on the computer that all the cameras, iPods, and iPhones were always connected to. So I bought a couple of 1TB drives, thinking that I'd either set them up to mirror or set up an automatic backup of important files from one to the other.
Fast-forward nine or ten months, and the first TB drive is about 70% full while the other TB drive is sitting in the case unused. That's right, the techie guy didn't bother setting up any kind of data protection scheme, whether mirroring or backup. Even though there was an identical drive specifically bought for this sitting in the machine. Go ahead and laugh now.
Over the last couple of months, the kids and the wife kept saying the computer with the TB drive in it was slow. I attributed this to everything that was installed - after all, it had hogs like iTunes installed, it was streaming to the Xbox (using TVersity for that), it had all the document folders located on it... Then one day last week the computer wouldn't start. WTF?! So I finally started looking at it, and got a "disk read error". Yeah, lots of results on Google about that. One of the links I found pointed me to a tool called TestDisk which appears to have an active forum where people can get help recovering data from apparently wrecked disks.
But I have the weirdest symptom - whatever computer the drive is hooked up to gets extremely slow doing anything. I've tried it in two different computers, both of which are regular speed when this drive is not connected. The problem, of course, is that starting the computer takes 40 minutes (even though I've got a different drive to start from, and the bad drive is hooked up on the secondary SATA channel). So the next step in trying to recover data from this drive will be buying a SATA enclosure so that I can keep the drive disconnected until the computer has finished booting, and then connect it and try to fix it.
If I can't recover it, I've lost about ten months worth of pictures, a crap load of good shows that I torrented, and whatever personal files might have been created in the last ten months (resumes, budgets, D&D characters, that kind of stuff). Here's hoping TestDisk does what it advertises and fixes Boot Sectors, Master Boot Records, and Master File Tables.
Good luck bud. If you want some other suggestions and trade tricks let us know. Every one of us has dealt with this thing over the years I'm sure. Practically deal with a different type of hd failure at work once per month.
Data recovery is always a very slow process between faulting equipment an the process of actually reading the disk.
Getting an external enclosure with both a sata and a USB interface might be a good idea sometimes you luck out with one working better than the other although sata is the faster one.
Try making an ultimate boot cd for win it has several free recovery tools, other than that I will lookup the tool I used a work last, it wasn't free but worked on a very tricky recovery for me, I just don't remember the name at the moment.
If the HDD is slow when plugged directly into the SATA controller try connecting it through a SATA->USB 2.0 HDD dock and see what happens, I doubt much (I'm pretty sure this drive is bagged and tagged already) but it can't hurt...
Another thing you might want to try is mounting it with Ubuntu, I once had a drive that Windows would no longer mount but Ubuntu could (still not sure why exactly, but I was able to transfer the files I needed)... you can download the ISO and run Ubuntu off the disc without installing it.
Like I say though it's fairly likely that this disk is at end of life, lots of read/write activity and the extreme slowness... that drive is not long for this world I reckon (maybe you're sitting too close to Trevor and now you have the HDD curse).
I recommend trying to figure out if there was some software causing a lot of disk access (like constant scans, heavy IO, etc) anything that might cause your disk to thrash (check your other drives for fragmentation, that might be the clue right there).
Moving forward I highly recommend a device like a drobo if you want to set up an easy to maintain external drive array, I have one with 4 1TB drives that function as two 2TB logical drives. If any one drive fails I can literally pop it out and plug in a new one of any size and the drobo will balance itself accordingly. Drobo isn't cheap though, at least $400 if I remember (not including drives) but it's very convenient and easy to use (check MemEx for prices, I know they carry 'em).
Anyway, don't feel too bad, it never hurts to have a spare HDD kicking around, I know the one I had in storage came in handy when my SSD started flaking out, and I won it at Fraga back in August '10. Also you don't ever expect a new HDD to fail after such a short time either.
Thanks for the words of concern :) I'm kicking myself for not having set up some kind of data redundancy.
"ultimate" boot cd - where would I find that?
Drobo - you're right, they're expensive. How do you know a drive's gone bad, though? Does it tell you, or do you have to discover it?
donk! http://www.ubcd4win.com/
How do you know that a drive is kaput in the Drobo? Two indicators!
1. The software tells you
2. The indicator light next to the offending drive changes
Just pop the sucker out and slide in a new one. Done and done.
So is it just that one drive thats causing any computer to get slow? Do you have the windows file search indexing going on? If so, try turning that off and see what happens.
But definitely try and copy everything off that disk over to the spare. When you get things sorted, you should have the one computer mirror that drive over to the other with some backup utility (Not sure what you'd use in windows for that, but in linux I'd setup a cron job to rsync the two drives).
You can set up a Scheduled Task for drive backup, not quite the same as cron but... it's Windows so meh
Quote from: Mr. Analog on February 19, 2011, 01:31:52 PM
You can set up a Scheduled Task for drive backup, not quite the same as cron but... it's Windows so meh
And most backup utilities probably come with some kind of schedule feature. In the end its the same thing really.
Off Topic, but related to discussion:Quote from: Thorin on February 19, 2011, 08:45:35 AM
Thanks for the words of concern :) I'm kicking myself for not having set up some kind of data redundancy.
"ultimate" boot cd - where would I find that?
Drobo - you're right, they're expensive. How do you know a drive's gone bad, though? Does it tell you, or do you have to discover it?
Even my DLink 2 Drive NAS will email you if one of the drives is failing (and lights change), and it isn't that expensive. Drobos are nice, really, but you don't have to spend that money if all you want is a storage device. If you want the extras, there is Drobo, Synology, Buffalo, Seagate, etc...
Really it is all about having the redundancy in the first place and then having it monitored in some way. If that is all you want, then just look for a NAS that does it.
Backup software for PC, well there are many free ones you can consume, and then there is the other way as well. Or as Mr. A said, you can use a scheduled task, although Windows 7 has limited how the backups work in windows by default a bit (not as selective as it used to be), so when using a scheduled task, you might have to consider some scripting. This is only if you are looking for a backup solution for your data (I don't know your needs).
Some people are just fine with a redundant solution, which isn't a backup (I think we have beat this discusssion to death before). Most people I know don't really have a "backup solution" in the home, even though they know that redundancy isn't a backup.
On topicUltimate Boot CD is nice. Hiren Boot CD is also a great tool for Hardware and Software troubleshooting. We've used it on complex SCSI systems at work as well as workstations.
Another trick is the disk in a bag, wrapped in paper-towel, and in freezer for 20 minutes. This typically helps with drives in your situation, as it could be a heat related issue for the slow downs. But this is a last resort solution, as it can sometimes destroy as much as help.
Quote from: Melbosa on February 19, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
Off Topic, but related to discussion:
Some people are just fine with a redundant solution, which isn't a backup (I think we have beat this discusssion to death before). Most people I know don't really have a "backup solution" in the home, even though they know that redundancy isn't a backup.
I have a double/tripple redundant setup. first rsnapshot (using rsync) backs up all important data (from all machines) to my big data share, which is raid5, and then at some point that backup is then rsync'ed up to my dedicated server.
Quote from: Melbosa on February 19, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
On topic
Ultimate Boot CD is nice. Hiren Boot CD is also a great tool for Hardware and Software troubleshooting. We've used it on complex SCSI systems at work as well as workstations.
Another trick is the disk in a bag, wrapped in paper-towel, and in freezer for 20 minutes. This typically helps with drives in your situation, as it could be a heat related issue for the slow downs. But this is a last resort solution, as it can sometimes destroy as much as help.
I suppose it could be heat, but hard drives are rather good about high temperatures. They are more likely to fail due to cold temperatures, or rapidly changing temperatures.
Quote from: Melbosa on February 19, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
Even my DLink 2 Drive NAS will email you if one of the drives is failing (and lights change), and it isn't that expensive.
DNS-323?
If you want to drop names on NAS I would suggest a Qnap or Synology (ncix stocks both), mostly for two reasons: a) they make higher end units as well as SOHO and b) both have huge hacking communities that allow you to extend there functionality greatly.
Quote from: Thorin on February 19, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
Quote from: Melbosa on February 19, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
Even my DLink 2 Drive NAS will email you if one of the drives is failing (and lights change), and it isn't that expensive.
DNS-323?
Yep
Quote from: Tom on February 19, 2011, 03:08:58 PM
I suppose it could be heat, but hard drives are rather good about high temperatures. They are more likely to fail due to cold temperatures, or rapidly changing temperatures.
It usually isn't that the whole drive is overheating but one of the chips pathways is degraded, and cooling it gives you a chance to get said chip to operate better. Seen this many times with "modern" hard drives, especially with home computers, as most people aren't aware that SATA/IDE Consumer drives aren't rated for 24/7 use (and they leave their computer on all the time).
I'm sure you guys are on the right track, but one thing I would try really quick (especially seen this in Dell's for some reason) is to unplug ALL usb devices. Either bad ports, or conflicting drivers, etc can really drive a system nuts. Have almost similar symptoms when i have my printer/blackberry/ipad/ups all plugged in at the same time.
Oh yeah! The DNS-323 forgot all about that, I almost bought one of those last year :)
My only gripe with it is that it only supported 2 drives, very affordable NAS though ($150 last I checked).
There are tons of solutions in this arena though, I just picked the one that was the least hassle for me out of the box.
Quote from: Mags on February 20, 2011, 01:35:39 AM
I'm sure you guys are on the right track, but one thing I would try really quick (especially seen this in Dell's for some reason) is to unplug ALL usb devices. Either bad ports, or conflicting drivers, etc can really drive a system nuts. Have almost similar symptoms when i have my printer/blackberry/ipad/ups all plugged in at the same time.
Surely you don't mean
all USB devices, as then I'd have no keyboard or mouse connected... I put this drive in the non-problematic Dell, with only the keyboard and mouse connected, and experienced the exact same problem. I'm guessing right now it's bad sectors messing up the file table, but we'll see. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
I bought an external drive enclosure and am seeing the exact same problem when it's connected and turned on - any operation on the computer to do with file access causes the whole computer to slow to a crawl and never finishes.
Now I'm going to follow directions found on cgsecurity.org/wiki (http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/Damaged_Hard_Disk) to try and copy as much as possible from the damaged drive to the identical-and-empty drive. Hopefully most of it'll be recoverable. That's all I care about this week. Next week, I'll start thinking about how to set up a proper backup technique, which'll probably include buying yet another terabyte drive.
As for getting a NAS, honestly I'm just as happy using one of my desktops for storage and pointing the other one to it. I mean, even if you hook up a NAS with two drives (drive 1 mirrored to drive 2) and put all of your documents on it, you
still need to back them up somewhere, right? So why not just have two drives in your machine, and back up the important documents from drive 1 to drive 2?
If anything, I might buy two drives, install them both in the main desktop, mirror them, then use the new external enclosure to put the old, unused 1TB drive in and write backups to it. Then if one drive fails I can keep that computer running completely on the other drive, with no loss of OS or system setup or preferences. Of course, then I have to start thinking about what files are important or not.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to monitor mirrored drives inside a desktop? Are there programs for this?
Well, usually you don't buy a NAS just for "dumb" storage you buy it for the management software and convenience that comes with it.
Media streaming / FTP / fault tolerance / failure notification / etc is all bundled together on most NAS devices, all you have to do is plug in the drives and set up the software and you can walk away. The other main reason a NAS beats a in-box RAID array is that if that host system goes down you can still get your files from another system.
I gave up fussing with onboard RAID controllers in my experiences the rate of failure on the motherboard has usually been higher than the drives so... if you have a RAID array and the mobo dies you lose everything anyway.
Benefits of a dedicated NAS vs PC:
- Maintenance is simple, everything tends to come in a nice firmware update not piles of patches
- Small
- Quiet compared to a PC
- Uses less power
As for monitoring local drives on a windows system, you might want to look into generic WMI monitoring software... I believe the drive health values are exposed in WMI but I have never tried to monitor it directly on a stand alone system, normally I would do it via an external monitoring package.
If you want a decent cheap nas http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=50186&vpn=LS-WX2.0TL/R1&manufacture=Buffalo I have a single bay 2TB but this one is a 2bay. Only downside about these cheaper ones is the throughput.
Besides the benefits everyone has listed, there is also a performance hit to a mirrored set on your desktop. So if you do a lot of IO based stuff, a lot of people opt for the NAS over local when considering this hit.
Your situation is different than most home users. Most only have 1 desktop and a NAS is their only source of secondary storage. And there is nothing to say you can't use your NAS as a central storage device and a backup device. Sure it increases the risk having them at the same location, but its better than not having a Backup or Redundancy. Most of my home client's have a NAS. And those that have more than one desktop like the idea of the NAS as a central storage unit, as they don't leave their computers on all the time. The NAS, as has been pointed out, usually is quieter, smaller, and uses less power.
My setup is a little different at home. I run a central computer for all my data storage, in a RAID 5, and I use the NAS for the backup sets. Because I have this server to do all my streaming, downloading, hosting and other needs, I bought the cheap NAS to just hold all my important backups. Now this doesn't help with a local fire or disaster (flood, collapse of roof, etc), so you still need an off-site backup for your most important data. I use my new web-hosting's FTP service for this, as they offer a secure file folder location, encrypted and policy locked.
But what ever solution you decide in the end, some type of backup is better than no backup. Same goes with redundancy/fault tolerance.
RE: Offsite backup - Storage in the cloud is getting a lot easier (and cheaper) you can get clients that basically scan folders when you want and make automatic revision updates as you modify things.
One of my co-workers uses http://www.backblaze.com/
Quote from: Mr. Analog on February 22, 2011, 11:05:31 AM
RE: Offsite backup - Storage in the cloud is getting a lot easier (and cheaper) you can get clients that basically scan folders when you want and make automatic revision updates as you modify things.
One of my co-workers uses http://www.backblaze.com/
BackBlaze looks neat. It's an offsite mirroring service, though, not necessarily an offsite backup service. I got that by reading the "Archiving Files" section on this page: http://www.backblaze.com/remote-backup-everything.html
Quote
The Backblaze service is designed to protect the files you care about. Thus, we will keep a remote backup of any file that exists on your computer. Just in case, Backblaze will even keep multiple versions of that file for up to 30 days. However, Backblaze is not designed as an additional storage system when you run out of space. So, please don?t try to upload your external hard drive to us and delete your data off your drive?or we will delete those files from our servers as well.
Mel, I kinda ended up with a central computer for everything even though I had two desktops. So I'm set up similar to you, and am thinking of the external drive or NAS as a good location for backup sets.
FYI I would start using a cloud service like drop box for things like photos etc... FYI one of the neat things about the dropbox client is that it will do local lan sync as well to ensure local client machines are up to date and the cloud, but by syncing any local changes on the lan..
I have posted a referral link for dropbox before. You get a OK amount of storage free and can double the free storage by referrals, after that if you are considering it for significant backup the feeds really arn't bad considering they have a web interface and a client for almost every platform
I should think about using my drop box account to supplement my current double redundant backup scheme.
So far I use a custom script over rsnapshot to mirror all the important files off my computers (and VMs), which makes incremental snapshots every day, then a second wrapper over rsnapshot runs every week that rotates the daily snapshots, and rsyncs the latest daily snapshot to a geographically separated machine.
Here at home, it stores the snapshots on a raid1 volume, and on my dedicated server its stored just on a single drive (can't afford raid there, they charge an arm and a leg for it), and the two machines rsync their backups to each other weekly.
Thats for the important stuff, that I absolutely don't ever want to loose.
For my media files (music, video), I have a large raid5 array (6x1TB=4.6TiB) which is occasionally rsynced over to my desktop which has 2x2TB (4.6TiB) setup as a linear appended volume. Why do I bother you ask? I do something insanely stupid to my server or raid array more often than I'd like to admit to... :( this way if I do, I still have most/all of it. And I've gotten very sick of having to hunt down a lot of it every couple/few years.
If I added drop box to the equation, It''d probably just be used to make a copy of the "really important" files. And then only possibly a small-ish subset, as my current backup size comes to about 3.7G total.
Finally got around to downloading and burning Knoppix LiveCD, running it (Linux is now running from my DVD burner!), downloading ddrescue 1.8, and running it.
ddrescue was running much slower than I expected (30GB copied in 10 hours? 970GB to go?!). I stopped it, moved drives around to a different computer so wifey can still use her favourite desktop, and have now started it over.
At the moment ddrescue is averaging 5MB/sec, which equals 300MB/min, which equals 18,000MB/hr (18GB/hr). Which means 1,000,000MB (1,000GB or 1TB) is going to take 1,000,000 / 18,000 = 55.55 hours. OVER TWO FRICKIN' DAYS.
I think I just found the downside to large drive sizes.
Quote from: Thorin on February 27, 2011, 01:41:32 PM
Finally got around to downloading and burning Knoppix LiveCD, running it (Linux is now running from my DVD burner!), downloading ddrescue 1.8, and running it.
ddrescue was running much slower than I expected (30GB copied in 10 hours? 970GB to go?!). I stopped it, moved drives around to a different computer so wifey can still use her favourite desktop, and have now started it over.
At the moment ddrescue is averaging 5MB/sec, which equals 300MB/min, which equals 18,000MB/hr (18GB/hr). Which means 1,000,000MB (1,000GB or 1TB) is going to take 1,000,000 / 18,000 = 55.55 hours. OVER TWO FRICKIN' DAYS.
I think I just found the downside to large drive sizes.
It really shouldn't be going that slow unless its hitting /a lot/ of errors, or the drive is just slow.
I've only encountered one error so far. I'm sure the drive is bad but ddrescue has managed to read most of it so far. I'm down to 1.3MB/sec average now, though. That would make it six days <sigh> I read somewhere that ddrescue runs around 70MB/sec on a healthy drive...
Quote from: Thorin on February 27, 2011, 03:21:45 PM
I've only encountered one error so far. I'm sure the drive is bad but ddrescue has managed to read most of it so far. I'm down to 1.3MB/sec average now, though. That would make it six days <sigh> I read somewhere that ddrescue runs around 70MB/sec on a healthy drive...
It depends on the drive, but on average through a non "WD Green" type drive, you should get upwards of 90-110MB/s for anything decently recent. Sounds like a bad controller (the board on the drive) or cable.
Running recovery on damaged drives is always VERY SLOW... Most recoveries I have done in the past took overnight.
Ususally for me, the failures were mechanical in nature, so it was only slow arround the failed bits. It sounds like his whole entire disk is being slow.. Which makes it sound like the controller board on the drive is acting up some how. like its retrying every command once or twice...
0.5MB/sec, 14GB recovered in 7.5 hours. 2GB/hr. At this rate, it won't be overnight, it'll be 14 days for 700GB of data.
I have read that NTFS disks cause slowdowns in ddrescue, but not why. And yes, this is from an NTFS disk to an NTFS disk, of course.
Quote from: Thorin on February 27, 2011, 10:18:24 PM
0.5MB/sec, 14GB recovered in 7.5 hours. 2GB/hr. At this rate, it won't be overnight, it'll be 14 days for 700GB of data.
I have read that NTFS disks cause slowdowns in ddrescue, but not why. And yes, this is from an NTFS disk to an NTFS disk, of course.
When doing recoveries I normally only target critical folders and files not the entire drive.. However in your case you have a drive full of media you want to recover so it is a lot more than I normally would go after.
Be thankful that you can rescue anything at all!
Based on your description of your drive, I'd say a week is not so a bad thing if you get your data back? I've done recoveries spanning almost 3 weeks, depending on size and damage of the drive. IMO, if you are out a computer for a week, but get all your data back, I'd say live with the loss for a week. Glad you are at least getting something back.
Yeah, that's probably the right attitude. I just didn't think it'd take that long, I guess.
ddrescue apparently has problems and severe slowdowns copying from NTFS to NTFS, so I stopped it and tried formatting the destination drive as ext2, then tried to restore the NTFS partition to an image file on the destination drive. Took me a long time to figure out how to get ddrescue to actually create the image file, and then it was going even slower.
So I'm back at imaging the entire drive from one to the other <sigh> Should've just left it going, but we'll mark that up to a lesson learned. Now it's going at 0.3MB/sec, so 1GB/hr. 29 days for full recovery!
Who knows, Tom, maybe you're right and it's just a controller board. www.deadharddrive.com (http://www.deadharddrive.com) has an interesting story about that. But I'm at a point now where I don't want to interrupt the process at all, because it might never finish otherwise.
Y'know when I did my last deep recovery I restarted the job 3 times trying to make it faster but in the end if I had just let it run it's original course it would have taken half the time ;)
lol, yeah, I'm learning / have learned that lesson now, Mr. A...
Quote from: Thorin on February 28, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
lol, yeah, I'm learning / have learned that lesson now, Mr. A...
S'cool, I think it's one thing that everyone who does a drive recovery goes through that question of how long will it take vs how long will this drive last haha
Quote from: Mr. Analog on February 28, 2011, 11:15:43 AM
Quote from: Thorin on February 28, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
lol, yeah, I'm learning / have learned that lesson now, Mr. A...
S'cool, I think it's one thing that everyone who does a drive recovery goes through that question of how long will it take vs how long will this drive last haha
This is why most of my recoveries only target a small set of critical files. Going after it all does no good if it burns up in the first half of the transfer.
Quote from: Lazybones on February 28, 2011, 01:12:07 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on February 28, 2011, 11:15:43 AM
Quote from: Thorin on February 28, 2011, 10:56:28 AM
lol, yeah, I'm learning / have learned that lesson now, Mr. A...
S'cool, I think it's one thing that everyone who does a drive recovery goes through that question of how long will it take vs how long will this drive last haha
This is why most of my recoveries only target a small set of critical files. Going after it all does no good if it burns up in the first half of the transfer.
Hard to do that when you don't really know what's wrong. The file system could already be broken, which means a full copy is necessary. Of course that isn't the case here..
There are several companies that make recovery utilities that can do a raw read even when the filesystem is very damaged, however at that point files files often don't have names an you have to search by type and size.
Quote from: Lazybones on March 01, 2011, 08:24:26 AM
There are several companies that make recovery utilities that can do a raw read even when the filesystem is very damaged, however at that point files files often don't have names an you have to search by type and size.
This is what I had to do last time, i believe i wrote it up in the Tech subforum somewhere.
I've used imagerec/jpegrec before. Worked rather well. But it may not support all file formats you may want to save.
Quote from: Tom on March 01, 2011, 09:19:20 AM
I've used imagerec/jpegrec before. Worked rather well. But it may not support all file formats you may want to save.
The tool i used flattened all my PSD files, so while I got some of them back most of them were unusable :(
Quote from: Mr. Analog on March 01, 2011, 09:21:12 AM
Quote from: Tom on March 01, 2011, 09:19:20 AM
I've used imagerec/jpegrec before. Worked rather well. But it may not support all file formats you may want to save.
The tool i used flattened all my PSD files, so while I got some of them back most of them were unusable :(
Its hard to get right. If the fs is essentially dead, all it can do is try and guess at things. And its really really easy to get wrong when the file is fragmented. If the file descriptor/inode/whatever-windows-calls-it is gone, the tool doesn't know which block is next, so all you may get is the first block or maybe the first few.
I once accidentally formatted a partition, and lost all of the main meta data, but the actual file data was still there, so at the very least the tool was able to rescue non fragmented files. But it took a while, it scans for a set of known "mime types" and tries its best to save them.
Goin' on 8 days and about a third done... It's currently averaging about 0.4MB/sec. Was slower before, but now seems to be speeding up. And then, when this run is done, I'll have to run it again to try and fill in the error sections. And then there'll be the swap-the-controller-board attempt.
Well, pretty much fourteen days later here, and it finally finished. When ddrescue got all the way through, it showed about 3GB in errors. 3GB? Damn! But wait, why is ddrescue still running? Oh look, it's "trimming error areas". 3GB got whittled down to 15MB, with 2932 errors found on the disk <sigh> I guess it's just all gone. Oh no, wait, you can tell ddrescue to run through the error areas again, but to retry a failed read. Oh look, it's re-reading the errored areas, and they're becoming non-errors!
Holy crap, I managed to copy the entire 1TB drive without errors!
Damn, I'm loving ddrescue right now. That is, if it worked. Gonna have to connect up the new drive and see if it runs Windows - it should, since it was an entire disk duplicated.
Looks like its just a flakey controller if it actually managed to read without errors. Sounds like it anyhow. If it were a mechanical issue, the drive probably would have crashed a week or two ago.
Lets hope it wasn't silently corrupting data as it read though. That's a possibility.
I've managed to boot to Windows and do some things in Windows and it's running at normal speed, all from the copied drive. So I think you're bang on, Tom, I think the controller's just going/gone bad.
Now to think about how I want to protect this data, now that I have it back.
Quote from: Thorin on March 13, 2011, 03:24:24 PM
I've managed to boot to Windows and do some things in Windows and it's running at normal speed, all from the copied drive. So I think you're bang on, Tom, I think the controller's just going/gone bad.
Now to think about how I want to protect this data, now that I have it back.
My preferred option atm, is a semi-regular rsync from main to backup. Now if you want to copy both directions, you can use rsync to sync in both directions at once, which I haven't done yet. Or use some windows tool to do it. Not sure about the options there for that.
Great, it's been three weeks, I'm just trying to figure out what new drives I should buy, and suddenly the famdamily is saying the computer is taking forever to start up again. Is that a second drive gone bad now? I bought the a year ago, today!
You know, I bought Western Digital Caviar Blacks after hearing that they were the bomb, but my experience thus far has been that the cheapo Seagates Dell puts in their computers last, like four times as long.
Well the drives aren't supposed to be dying that fast. Either you are really /lucky/ and got two bad drives from (likely) the same batch. Or your machine is killing drives. If you have a digital multimeter, I'd try checking the voltages coming off the 3.3v, 5v and 12v lines (easiest to get to from the white molex connectors most used for PATA hard drives), if they are off the ATX spec, I'd think about getting a new power supply. Or if it is known to be good, re-jig the power hookups, some PSUs like to split up the power into separate rails in odd ways, making it somewhat tricky to hook everything up properly (as I found on my old desktop PSU, had to do some funky rewiring to make sure there was enough power for drives).
Hmm, five year warranty on both of those. And Western Digital does Advance Product Replacement. So they'll replace these drives for me. I think I'm going to go buy on more drive, copy all my stuff to it, then RMA these bee-otches. Damn, I should've RMA-ed the first failing drive right after I copied it, then I'd have another one sitting here to copy stuff to.
Still, with three drives I can have one in the machine, one attached in an external case taking backups, and a third inside the machine in RAID 1 (once I have three working drives).
Careful putting one in an exteranl enclosure, unless it has a fan. I've cooked a couple now letting them connect and power on for a week plus. Without active cooling most 3.5s don't last too long.
Quote from: Melbosa on April 09, 2011, 12:25:45 AM
Careful putting one in an exteranl enclosure, unless it has a fan. I've cooked a couple now letting them connect and power on for a week plus. Without active cooling most 3.5s don't last too long.
My external enclosure has been pretty good. It keeps the temps down by being a large heatsink in and of itself. Made of aluminum, it gets fairly warm to the touch.
My Drobo is always nice and cool, if not noisy from the 4" fan in back
Here's the temps my server's disk are at:
/dev/sda: ST3500418AS: 25?C
/dev/sdb: ST3500418AS: 25?C
/dev/sdc: ST31000528AS: 38?C
/dev/sdd: ST31000528AS: 38?C
/dev/sde: ST31000528AS: 39?C
/dev/sdf: ST31000523AS: 37?C
/dev/sdg: ST31000528AS: 35?C
/dev/sdh: ST31000528AS: 37?C
First two are sitting right behind a fan. The rest used to have 40mm fans, but they kept failing, so I disconnected the fans. The temps don't get much over 40c, so I don't much think they were necessary.
Mel: Well, the computer cases don't have active cooling for the drives either. Just a CPU fan and a power fan. Thanks for the warning, though.
Tom: That's a lot of drives. And they're all Seagates? Barracuda 7200.12s? Any problems? Lots of people online seem to complain about them failing early... And yet, I bought the WDs that are supposed to be great and I've got two acting up within one year.
I run 15 drives non-stop in the house. I have 4 Maxtor, 8 Seagate, 2 Western Digital, and one Toshiba. I've had each group fail one drive in the past 4 years.
But I believe if you can get active cooling on those drives, they will last longer. I always have a fan causing some type of air flow over my drives, which is a good practice for any computer component in your household.
Oh you know, a while back I had a cooling problem and it was solved with a bay cooler (fits in a 3.5" drive bay)
Quote from: Thorin on April 10, 2011, 03:01:12 PM
Mel: Well, the computer cases don't have active cooling for the drives either. Just a CPU fan and a power fan. Thanks for the warning, though.
Tom: That's a lot of drives. And they're all Seagates? Barracuda 7200.12s? Any problems? Lots of people online seem to complain about them failing early... And yet, I bought the WDs that are supposed to be great and I've got two acting up within one year.
Yup. 7200.12's. The 7200.11s are the bad ones, at least the ones that had the really bad firmware issues. I haven't had a problem with the .12s, or my older .11s for that matter (4x640). The first two are the single platter drives, so they are significantly thinner and cooler than the 1TB drives.
Quote from: Melbosa on April 10, 2011, 04:29:25 PM
I run 15 drives non-stop in the house. I have 4 Maxtor, 8 Seagate, 2 Western Digital, and one Toshiba. I've had each group fail one drive in the past 4 years.
But I believe if you can get active cooling on those drives, they will last longer. I always have a fan causing some type of air flow over my drives, which is a good practice for any computer component in your household.
My drives are stuck in my Antec 900, which has the large fan on top sucking air, as well as the 120mm rear fan, and the 120mm PSU fan also sucking air out, so they should be sucking a fair bit of air through the hot swap bays (2x 4in3 sata hot swap adapters). The nice thing is I haven't seen the temp rise over 42c (I tested non stop for hours, all drives going at max), which is an OK temp for modern hard drives. IIRC google has noticed that drives actually prefer to a be a bit warm, they are made to handle running hot, but not TOO hot.
While drives may be more efficient at certain temperatures, it isn't recommended to run any drives without airflow over them, even by Google's research. The movement of Air is usually enough to make the longevity of any drive that much better, whether it be over heat syncs attached to the drive or just the drive's electronics itself. And this is what I mean by Active Cooling.
Things like those Nexstar or Velocity 3.5 drive bays are only meant to be used like a USB stick. Temporarily powered and used, not used as a NAS or USB-Attached Storage for a 24x7 manor. Plug in, use for what you need, unplug, power down. These devices have no active cooling measures, and rely on heat transfer through metal to keep any semblance of heat distribution.
This is my advice, compiled through my own experience and research over the years. My final advice: Research it on your own before making any purchase or change to your hardware, which I know all of you do :D.
Ah, you meant more with external enclosures. Gotcha.
My NexStar CX is rather good at staying cool. I don't think I ever saw it above 40c or so either. even plugged in constantly and running tests. Of course USB 2 keeps it from operating at full potential (1/3 or less...), and my laptop doesn't do eSATA.
I RMA'd my drives a week ago, and they arrived on Friday. So Saturday, I ended up buying a Drobo FS (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo-fs.php) from Memory Express for $630+tax; no more sitting around thinking about whether to build a server or not. I got the Drobo home, read the short manual, shoved in the drives, installed Drobo Dashboard, and turned it on. It's hooked to my network, so I don't need any specific computers turned on.
I re-configured the shares on the Drobo to have a Drobo_Shared and Drobo_MyDocs. Drobo_Shared is for shared docs, Drobo_MyDocs is for individual users' My Documents folders.
I have seven users on each of my home machines - one for each family member and "Visitor". I went through all fourteen users and pointed their My Documents folder at the appropriate subfolder of Drobo_MyDocs. There, now as long as people save stuff into their My Documents folder, it'll be on a properly-protected file system.
The Drobo itself sits up on the desk with the computers, so it'll be easy to see if there's a yellow or red light. Kinda funny, my computers and printer and router are all white/silver, the Drobo is jet-black - it's the black sheep on the desk.
Took me only a couple of minutes to install and connect, but I spent probably two hours deciding the right way to use it (shares for users' MyDocs). In the end I don't have very much security on it, relying on my network security instead, since this is no different than what I had before the Drobo. At this point I'm basically using it as a file server, but I'm looking at installing a couple of DroboApps to stream to the Xbox and the iPhones/iPods in the house.
My only complaint so far is the slow file copy. I've got 600GB of data to copy over (movies, music, pictures, tv shows, etc), and I'm on 15+ hours. Good thing it'll just run all night.
I think once all the data has been copied over and I've double-checked for other data created since my drives first started acting up, I might just wipe these two Dells and completely re-format / re-install. There was a lot of old, junk registry entries, which means there were a lot of programs installed and then uninstalled (or worse, still running).
This was money I didn't really have available to spend, but it's certainly bought me some peace of mind, especially once I get that third drive cleaned off and popped into the Drobo.
Writes can be slow but then again it's writing to multiple drives. One thing I do recommend is setting up regular diff backups to folders you need backed up.
One thing I like about the drobo is how stupidly easy it is to set up and keep running. The only real gaffe I had with it was a crap update was pushed down that required a manual re-install of the desktop management software, but that was one update in about 3 years of files so... not so bad really.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 17, 2011, 09:55:39 PM
Writes can be slow but then again it's writing to multiple drives. One thing I do recommend is setting up regular diff backups to folders you need backed up.
Done properly, writing to multiple drives should be faster, not slower.
If it really is only going to take about 11ish hours, then it's going at 15MB/s, which means you are on a GbE network. But 15MB/s is pretty close to peak speeds of transferring a lot of data over 802.11g. Are you transferring over wifi? If so, maybe just jack the machine on wifi direct to the switch, or the drobo itself.
If you actually have a GbE lan, it should be going significantly faster (2Hrs @ 30-60MB/s), or if you're on a 100mbps lan, much slower ( 28Hrs @ 6MB/s).
Anyway, it is a nice thing to have a safe(ish) place to keep your files. I love my file server.
Quote from: Tom on July 17, 2011, 10:22:50 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 17, 2011, 09:55:39 PM
Writes can be slow but then again it's writing to multiple drives. One thing I do recommend is setting up regular diff backups to folders you need backed up.
Done properly, writing to multiple drives should be faster, not slower.
Depending on the setup it
can be faster or slower, it has nothing to do with being "done properly".
I'll say this about the drobo, reads are generally quick.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 17, 2011, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: Tom on July 17, 2011, 10:22:50 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 17, 2011, 09:55:39 PM
Writes can be slow but then again it's writing to multiple drives. One thing I do recommend is setting up regular diff backups to folders you need backed up.
Done properly, writing to multiple drives should be faster, not slower.
Depending on the setup it can be faster or slower, it has nothing to do with being "done properly".
I just can't see writes to multiple drives being much slower than to a single drive in any sane config I can think of. Even a Raid1 isn't much/any slower than a single drive. A linear appended array (JBOD) wouldn't be any slower either, since its really only writing to one disk at a time. Get into Raid0 and Raid5/6, or Raid10 style things, and speed increases significantly in most cases.
Even if the Drobo has a super fancy Raid5 like system, 2+ disks should be faster than 1 disk. Unless its a super slow machine, doing all of the parity on its super slow CPU. But for $600 you should expect the machine to not get slower when you add more disks to it. For that kind of price, it should have a hardware parity/checksum feature.
Quote from: Tom on July 17, 2011, 10:59:17 PMEven if the Drobo has a super fancy Raid5 like system, 2+ disks should be faster than 1 disk. Unless its a super slow machine, doing all of the parity on its super slow CPU. But for $600 you should expect the machine to not get slower when you add more disks to it. For that kind of price, it should have a hardware parity/checksum feature.
I think the constraints are more likely the fact that mine is USB 2.0 as well the controller on the drobo doesn't spin up the drives until a request is made to save on power consumption so there is some lag when you first access it. Thorin's might be newer so I don't know what his speeds or the spin up time is for him.
I challenge you to find a standalone RAID device that requires nothing more than putting drives in and plugging in a couple of cables to get running. The point of this was for it to be hassle free and if a couple hundred bucks solves that, it evens out when your time has value (which in a family of 5 is probably valuable!)
I too own a Drobo FS and find the transfer speeds fast enough (both read and write), but I do have mine configured to use Jumbo Frames as all my devices on my network support it, save my XBox which I don't use to stream. The write is a bit slower on a Drobo FS than with conventional raids as it utilizes a storage hyper-visor with the disks allowing you to utilize different sized disks for maximum storage, versus the standard all disk sizes must be the same. With the Drobo FS you can also change your raid settings on the fly with the storage virtualization, going from 0 redundancy to dual disk failure with a click of a button and a releveling process (assuming you have the storage to do so). So you have a higher flexibility with the storage virtualization and the controller, but it does suffer some performance because of it.
But 600GB over a 100mb backbone can take a bit. Also depends on sequential reads versus randoms, and fragmentation can cause slowness. And if you have ever dealt with Storage Virtualization before, you'll know the higher the spindle count the better your write performance will get - assuming your controller is able to handle it (my Drobo FS is full). So from my experience for over 2 months, I have noticed decent transfer speeds to the Drobo FS, but even with Jumbo Frames enabled I still notice a difference over what I had before (I had better transfers to my file server with a standard RAID 5 before my Drobo FS - again utilizing Jumbo Frames).
In the end, like Thorin, I am opting for a simpler solution over my traditional bulky file server - although I am keeping it around as a Movies Storage/Virtual Machine computer. I do think they need to work on their integration and streaming "Drobo Apps" if they want to compete with Synology in that area. Buffalo does offer better performance at the same spindle count, but the Buffalo systems are more expensive. Synology is next for costs, but you do get a lot of functionality out of them you wouldn't get from any other at the same price point. For me the cost/storage bay and the sale I got mine at was the driving factor for me (got mine when it was on for $499 at memory express).
I only have two drives in it at the moment. I've read online several people that have had it speed up when they put more drives in. Also, I'm running over 100Mbit/s not Gbit/s. The computers I bought way back when didn't have gig-E networking, so the router I bought way back when didn't either. And no, I wasn't transferring over wifi, I tend to use hardwired connections for data transfer because as fast as they claim wifi is getting, we don't really get anywhere close to those speeds.
Thanks for the explanation about the storage hypervisor - I was wondering how they did all this changing on the fly with different-sized disks. And that $499 price was on until the week before I bought mine, but they were all out.
I let it run overnight and it finished copying, though, and for all that time that it took it's now done. Here's to never losing files again! I still need to double-check a few locations on the old drive (like people's desktops) to make sure I've got all files copied; by the end of the week I should be ready to pop that old drive in and double the storage (or turn on dual disk redundancy?).
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 07:41:26 AM
I too own a Drobo FS and find the transfer speeds fast enough (both read and write), but I do have mine configured to use Jumbo Frames as all my devices on my network support it, save my XBox which I don't use to stream. The write is a bit slower on a Drobo FS than with conventional raids as it utilizes a storage hyper-visor with the disks allowing you to utilize different sized disks for maximum storage, versus the standard all disk sizes must be the same. With the Drobo FS you can also change your raid settings on the fly with the storage virtualization, going from 0 redundancy to dual disk failure with a click of a button and a releveling process (assuming you have the storage to do so). So you have a higher flexibility with the storage virtualization and the controller, but it does suffer some performance because of it.
No doubt. But I very much doubt that writing to the two disk array would be slower than just a single disk. Maybe not as fast a traditional raid, or even two separate drives.
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 07:41:26 AM
But 600GB over a 100mb backbone can take a bit.
You ain't kidding. Back in the day when I was stuck with 100mbit, It took AGES to back my stuff up and whatnot. These days its not so bad, except I have MUCH more data, so when I do a full copy of it all, it still takes quite a while, even over GbE (5TB @ 60MB/s == 24~ hours)
(I get 40-60MB/s over CIFS/NFS, but can get upwards of 90MB/s raw throughput, even without Jumbo Frames, which is good since many of my devices don't support Jumbo Frames)
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 07:41:26 AM
In the end, like Thorin, I am opting for a simpler solution over my traditional bulky file server - although I am keeping it around as a Movies Storage/Virtual Machine computer. I do think they need to work on their integration and streaming "Drobo Apps" if they want to compete with Synology in that area. Buffalo does offer better performance at the same spindle count, but the Buffalo systems are more expensive. Synology is next for costs, but you do get a lot of functionality out of them you wouldn't get from any other at the same price point. For me the cost/storage bay and the sale I got mine at was the driving factor for me (got mine when it was on for $499 at memory express).
Sure does sound easy. I just can't afford that kind of outlay. I already have a system with tons of space for disks, and all I had to do was buy a $100 8 port, PCIE x4 SATA/SAS card, and I was off to the races. Now its almost full :o 7 out of 8 ports full with 1TB drives. And DAMN its fast with raw drives. If I did a test on it now, I'd likely get over 600MB/s, possibly more.
Quote from: Thorin on July 18, 2011, 09:58:44 AM
I only have two drives in it at the moment. I've read online several people that have had it speed up when they put more drives in. Also, I'm running over 100Mbit/s not Gbit/s. The computers I bought way back when didn't have gig-E networking, so the router I bought way back when didn't either. And no, I wasn't transferring over wifi, I tend to use hardwired connections for data transfer because as fast as they claim wifi is getting, we don't really get anywhere close to those speeds.
Yeah, most I get off wifi is 15-20Mb/s. Far short of the 54Mb/s they claim.
[/quote]
Quote from: Thorin on July 18, 2011, 09:58:44 AM
I let it run overnight and it finished copying, though, and for all that time that it took it's now done. Here's to never losing files again! I still need to double-check a few locations on the old drive (like people's desktops) to make sure I've got all files copied; by the end of the week I should be ready to pop that old drive in and double the storage (or turn on dual disk redundancy?).
What do you have it set on now? Does it tell you what "mode" its in? You could go dual redundancy if you want, or you could stay with single redundancy and pick up some performance if you find you need some (I assume it'd switch from mirroring, to something like raid5, where it distributes data and parity info across stripes on the disks).
It really is nice to not have to worry too much about losing your data. I started getting so sick of losing even my unimportant stuff (anime, tv shows, music) that I built a second JBOD array to backup the entire larger raid5, just so I don't have to go through an re-find everything I want to keep again when either the entire array somehow dies, or I PEBKAC it some how (that's happened at least twice). As it is, I backup my other machines important files onto my home server, and then mirror that backup folder up to my dedicated server on the internet. So I have three copies of it all ;D (that server also backs up its important files, and syncs them down to the home server \o/ but that server doesn't have raid, so its /very/ important I have the extra copy)
Drobo FS by default has single disk redundancy - if one disk fails, you still have all your data, but if a second disk fails before you replace the failed disk, you lose data. Not that big a deal since it emails you when a drive fails plus it has really obvious indicator lights plus replacing a drive takes seconds (if you have an extra one kicking around).
Drobo FS can also have dual disk redundancy - up to two disks can fail and you still have your data.
Since I only have two disks in there now, I can't do the dual disk redundancy yet. Once I put a third one in, I can. It's set to single disk at the moment, though, but can be switched by just checking the "Dual Disk Redundancy" checkbox.
And from what I understand, Drobo doesn't really use RAID, just RAID-like technology. For instance, disks can be all sizes and all of each disk gets used.
And I didn't have the money for this either, I've been telling the kids one of them can't do sports this year. They all gave me that "Yeah, right" look. It's a good thing credit cards allow you to carry a balance.
It sure feels good to know that your files are covered though eh?
Quote from: Thorin on July 18, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
And from what I understand, Drobo doesn't really use RAID, just RAID-like technology. For instance, disks can be all sizes and all of each disk gets used.
Here is the explanation of BeyondRAID =- Drobo's coined term for their storage virtualization system: http://www.drobo.com/resources/beyondraid.php
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 10:45:46 AM
Quote from: Thorin on July 18, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
And from what I understand, Drobo doesn't really use RAID, just RAID-like technology. For instance, disks can be all sizes and all of each disk gets used.
Here is the explanation of BeyondRAID =- Drobo's coined term for their storage virtualization system: http://www.drobo.com/resources/beyondraid.php
It's a really cool technology. Similar to how I bet ZFS and Btrfs work. Most file systems REALLY don't like to be resized dynamically, though it is possible, its quite error prone, so the easiest way to support their feature set is to have a custom files ystem. But that's just a guess on my part. You get RAID like features, Dynamic Volumes, and should they expand the feature-set, Volume/FS snapshots, Data De-duplication, and maybe Over Provisioning. Something makes me think they might have an enterprise product that supports those last three features (they are killer features).
Yes it's nice to know the files are on a redundant system. It's also nice to know that they're not all coming off one computer, so I can turn all the computers off without interfering with each other (well, once I find a way to network my USB-attached printer). When I stop to think about it, it's amazing how many devices are hooked up to my network that can all now get files from <robot voice>DROBO1</robot voice>: 2 desktops, 2 laptops, 2 iPhones, an iPod Touch, and an Xbox. And soon there'll be another laptop as well.
Hmm, I wonder how having the My Documents folder pointed to the Drobo would work for a laptop if that laptop was out and about at a coffee shop or something? I might need to leave the laptops' My Documents folders local to the laptops. Which means there's a location where people will probably save files which will not be protected...
Quote from: Thorin on July 18, 2011, 12:45:18 PM
Hmm, I wonder how having the My Documents folder pointed to the Drobo would work for a laptop if that laptop was out and about at a coffee shop or something? I might need to leave the laptops' My Documents folders local to the laptops. Which means there's a location where people will probably save files which will not be protected...
There are a few ways to do this on a domain, however for a home setup you might want to look at doing the following (haven't tried on a non domain computer)
1. Change the path of your my documents folder to the network path. There will be an option that will move the files there... Note this will be slow if it has lots of data
2. Configure the Offline Files feature
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff633429%28WS.10%29.aspx
Note you should investigate the pros and cons of this... Mostly with the sync times at log in and log out...
Drobo 'splained in 3 minutes
http://www.drobo.com/resources/drobodemo.php (more here: http://www.youtube.com/user/DataRobotics )
Quote from: Thorin on July 17, 2011, 08:55:50 PM
I RMA'd my drives a week ago, and they arrived on Friday. So Saturday, I ended up buying a Drobo FS (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo-fs.php) from Memory Express for $630+tax; no more sitting around thinking about whether to build a server or not. I got the Drobo home, read the short manual, shoved in the drives, installed Drobo Dashboard, and turned it on. It's hooked to my network, so I don't need any specific computers turned on.
Just cruius, why did you go for http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX28444(ME).aspx
instead of http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX21524(ME).aspx
?
I'm going to guess for Thorin it was Networking and 1 more bay expansion... Probably mostly networking ability.
Consumer Model Comparison: http://www.drobodrives.com/compare-drobo/
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
I'm going to guess for Thorin it was Networking and 1 more bay expansion... Probably mostly networking ability.
Was gonna say: USB 2.0 VS Gigabit LAN
I know what I'd pick if I was in the market ;)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 18, 2011, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
I'm going to guess for Thorin it was Networking and 1 more bay expansion... Probably mostly networking ability.
Was gonna say: USB 2.0 VS Gigabit LAN
I know what I'd pick if I was in the market ;)
Yeah, 20MB/s vs upwards of 40-60MB/s, and you don't have to keep a computer on to access it. It may be twice the price, but it is probably worth it. $600 is about the price of a decent file server box, so its not really all that expensive, specially since there's very little management involved.
I think the short answer is that one is a NAS and the other is just external storage.
He needed multiple computers to access the storage over a network.
Quote from: Tom on July 18, 2011, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 18, 2011, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: Melbosa on July 18, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
I'm going to guess for Thorin it was Networking and 1 more bay expansion... Probably mostly networking ability.
Was gonna say: USB 2.0 VS Gigabit LAN
I know what I'd pick if I was in the market ;)
Yeah, 20MB/s vs upwards of 40-60MB/s, and you don't have to keep a computer on to access it. It may be twice the price, but it is probably worth it. $600 is about the price of a decent file server box, so its not really all that expensive, specially since there's very little management involved.
Exactly!
Quote from: Darren Dirt on July 18, 2011, 01:26:05 PM
Just cruius, why did you go for http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX28444(ME).aspx
instead of http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX21524(ME).aspx
?
I got the Drobo FS (your first link) instead of the Drobo (your second link) because the FS doesn't need to be hooked to a computer. I want to get away from having everything run through a single computer that then has to stay on all day and all night. I can now move it to any switch or router on my home network (yeah, I've only got two so far) - something that might be important given that I've run out of power plugins near my computers.
I was thinking of buying a Drobo (not FS) and a DroboShare, which would have enabled the Drobo as a networked device, but the price was essentially the same and would require two power plugs, which would require me to find somewhere near a router with two power plugs - my living room's plugs are pretty much completely full depending on where I'm willing to put the Drobo+DroboShare (like, on the ground where everyone walks). I wasn't willing to re-arrange my living room, so just buying the Drobo FS was the path of least resistance.
-----
lol! 6 replies as I'm typing my answer, answering for me!
FYI, the Drobo FS has a few apps that can be installed on it - DroboApps. The one I'm trying to install and get running is FUPPES, which is supposed to stream audio and video and images to DLNA devices (specifically I'm trying to get it to show on my Xbox360). THIS IS A PAIN! From everything I've read, DroboApps are certainly not plug-n-play like the promotional material suggests.
I suspect that since it's a new suite a features it's gonna be a pain in the butt.
The advantage I have by connecting the Drobo as a drive on a PC is that I can have Windows Media stream content that needs streaming.
Everything else is just a share and I've found that between my DVD player and my XBox just about all the file formats are covered.
Quote from: Thorin on July 20, 2011, 02:47:42 PM
FYI, the Drobo FS has a few apps that can be installed on it - DroboApps. The one I'm trying to install and get running is FUPPES, which is supposed to stream audio and video and images to DLNA devices (specifically I'm trying to get it to show on my Xbox360). THIS IS A PAIN! From everything I've read, DroboApps are certainly not plug-n-play like the promotional material suggests.
DroboApps is Drobo's attempt to compete with Synology out of the box stuff, but to leverage open source projects to do the work for them. FUPPES is by no means easy to setup and use, even as a VM appliance from VMware - which are typically wizard setups and go (tried it once... hated the experience with FUPPES). And DroboApps is just that, a VM environment to download VM appliances on to. PS3MediaServer ftw... put that on a computer and XBox or PS3 or WMP will stream anything with a couple simple setup steps - so much easier than TVersity, and not limited to your DLNA device's native supported codecs. Just need that damn computer in between.
Quote from: Thorin on July 20, 2011, 02:47:42 PM
FYI, the Drobo FS has a few apps that can be installed on it - DroboApps. The one I'm trying to install and get running is FUPPES, which is supposed to stream audio and video and images to DLNA devices (specifically I'm trying to get it to show on my Xbox360). THIS IS A PAIN! From everything I've read, DroboApps are certainly not plug-n-play like the promotional material suggests.
With the exception of a select few DLNA servers especially on a NAS do not trans-code. So you must have media in a file format that is KNOWN to work on the Xbox 360 or it may not even appear on the menu.
Quote from: Lazybones on July 20, 2011, 03:47:49 PM
Quote from: Thorin on July 20, 2011, 02:47:42 PM
FYI, the Drobo FS has a few apps that can be installed on it - DroboApps. The one I'm trying to install and get running is FUPPES, which is supposed to stream audio and video and images to DLNA devices (specifically I'm trying to get it to show on my Xbox360). THIS IS A PAIN! From everything I've read, DroboApps are certainly not plug-n-play like the promotional material suggests.
With the exception of a select few DLNA servers especially on a NAS do not trans-code. So you must have media in a file format that is KNOWN to work on the Xbox 360 or it may not even appear on the menu.
From bitter experience I can say that one of two outcomes is possible:
- The file doesn't show
- The file DOES show but errors on playback
Yeah, I was hoping to stream video from the Drobo without having to have a computer on. I might end up having to install Tversity or something again, but having it read from the network drive instead of the local drive.
I would suggest MediaTomb over FUPPES
http://drobo.jhah.net/apps/mediatomb/start
Or
miniDLNA (more standards compliant) probably harder to install as it doesn't appear to be packaged and needs to be compiled.
http://www.droboports.com/app-repository/minidlna-1-0-19
The MediaTomb link you give, if you check the readme file also found there, you'll find that it doesn't support streaming to the Xbox 360 at this time:
Quote
MediaTomb does NOT support XBox 360 at this time, although external transcoding may work. I cannot provide further details on this topic at this time.
Kind of a deal breaker for me.
Anyway, I might go back to Tversity, or perhaps even streaming through Window Media Player 11.
Before I do all that, I have to flatten my home network. Right now I have:
Telus modem/router (wireless off)
-- Telus PVR set-top box
-- Telus regular set-top box
-- Xbox 360
-- old router (wireless on, MAC filtering on)
-- wired computers
-- Drobo
-- wireless computers and devices
I need to convert that router to a switch, so that means copying all my port forwarding, MAC white list, DHCP reservations, etc to the Telus router, then disabling DHCP on the old router.
Then and only then will the Xbox be able to see the Drobo or Tversity or WMP11 Sharing.
Good luck. From one streamer to another I highly recommend PS3MediaServer over Tversity.
Any particular reason you think PS3MediaServer is better than Tversity?
Quote from: Thorin on July 21, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
Any particular reason you think PS3MediaServer is better than Tversity?
He has a PS3...?
Easier to configure and setup, and transcoding is easier to process. More options available from your end point to change transcode options without having to go to the computer when files aren't working. PS3MediaServer also will play inside files (although Tversity might do this now), so it mounts ISO files without having to extract or looks in RARs (not rar sets mind you, although that is on the horizon) for playable media. It also has nice options for Subs of movies that you can't do with Tversity.
Yes PS3 does work best with PS3MediaServer, but it works just as good with XBox. PS3 just has a better streaming GUI, and has a couple more options. Plus it is GB nic with Jumbo Frames support, so never have network congestion problems.
If you are comfortable with Tversity, as I was, then you can stick with it. PS3MediaServer IMO though is a better app when it comes down to function and ease of use. Tversity is more polished in its GUI interface and professional distribution (PS3MediaServer is still Open Source and their site reflects that).
PS3Mediaserver also has "fixup files" that are often contributed to in their forums that make it compatible with a wider number of DLNA devices like TVs.
DLNA is a very very poor standard.
Hmm, I found Tversity really easy to configure and set up: run the installer, set the media location, walk away. I wasn't able to find an installer for PS3MS, although admittedly I didn't look.
I don't have a PS3, so any PS3-specific extras don't mean anything to me.
I don't want anything that has to be tweaked, as it's not just me that uses it. The response to a video not playing, in this house, is not to go to the computer and change transcoding options, but rather to just pick a different video. I'm the only one that would even think of trying different transcoding settings, and even then I'd rather just re-download the video in some other format.
Given that I don't want to have to twiddle with _anything_ and that if a file doesn't play I just throw it away and look for a file in a different format, I don't get how PS3MS is easier to use? Does it read my mind and just start playing the file without me selecting it? Does it turn on the Xbox, then read my mind? Does it use the Kinect to notice I sat down, turning on the system then reading my mind then playing the file I want?
I do get that you're saying it has more options and can be twiddled without getting up from the couch. But more options usually means less easy to use - the more options, the more you have to learn, the steeper the learning curve.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong - I'm looking at it from the point of view of actually watching a streamed video. Maybe you're talking about the ease of use when setting up / configuring the app on the computer. But again, all I had to do there was run the installer, select the media location, and walk away. Sure, I could twiddle the default settings, but I didn't need to - I just waited for the library to build, then turned on the Xbox and started watching a video.
I think you might be a bit premature in your assessment of PS3MS. It to can be an install, point at folders and walk away. It actually out of the box will work with a few more media encoding and with the ISO/Rar support actually give you more options than Tversity. I myself actually had a harder time setting up Tversity to work with my video collection than I have ever had with PS3MS. And the Transcode options from the couch are trivially easy, so much so that I think you two oldests and your wife would be able to figure it out (my fiancee had figured it out even without asking me anything about it).
But hey, I am only strongly urging you to try it. I won't be upset if you don't. Pick what works best for you and your family. If change for them is difficult in this area, stick with what works for you. It may just be not worth the impact in the grander scheme of things. This I completely understand!
Where/how are the transcoding options from the couch presented to the viewer? I'm having trouble imagining the UI for it.
I'm not saying PS3MediaServer isn't easy to use (as I haven't used it so can't form an opinion), I'm just saying there wasn't much to improve on with my experience with Tversity. It was as simple as I could possibly imagine.
Quote from: Thorin on July 22, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
Where/how are the transcoding options from the couch presented to the viewer? I'm having trouble imagining the UI for it.
I'm not saying PS3MediaServer isn't easy to use (as I haven't used it so can't form an opinion), I'm just saying there wasn't much to improve on with my experience with Tversity. It was as simple as I could possibly imagine.
From what I recall
- it will label files that will be trans-coded so you know in advance there might be a delay
- it presents configuration items like folders so by navigating them on your DNLA device you can actually change settings without going to a computer / web-browser.
The only thing not as easy as I recall was that it has not wizard installer, you just run it where ever you unpack it and there is one time command line option to install as a service I believe.
At any rate TVserity is fine if it is working, I hand regular crashing issues with it and random codec issues but it did work and has a nice UI.
PS3MS is now a GUI Wizard installer, no need for command line stuffs.
TRANSCODING FROM THE COUCH:
So how it works is you open your video's folder (I usually have a folder per video, as you can have graphics and extras tied in), and then you see your video file and a folder called #TRANSCODE# along with other things that might exist in the same folder. If your video doesn't play (throws a DNLA error or anything else), you stop the playback, go into the #TRANSCODE# folder and pick another video file (which are all representations of your video file with different transcode options). Typically it only takes 1 or 2 tries and you are watching the video.
Again, no worries. If you have any more questions, let me know.
I have a dual-router network. My original router is a D-Link DIR-625, which used to be connected to a Shaw cable modem. With the switch to Telus, I got an Actiontec V1000H modem/router. When they first installed it, it was easier to just run a network cable from the Actiontec to the D-Link, simply because of physical locations. Also, that way I didn't have to mess with my router set-up, such as SSID name, MAC filtering list, etc.
The D-Link sits close to the computers, the Actiontec sits close to the TV. I also have an Xbox sitting close to the TV, which used to connect to the D-Link through a long network cable. However, I only have one cable long enough, and I switched that one over to run from the Actiontec to the D-Link. To make do, I plugged the Xbox into the Actiontec, but now I couldn't stream video from the computers (on the D-Link) up to the Xbox (on the Actiontec), because the Xbox couldn't see any computers behind the D-Link router.
So, I figured out how to do MAC filtering on the Telus Actiontec V1000H modem/router - it's in a non-intuitive place under "Wireless Setup". Got all the MAC addresses copied over, then turned on the wireless on the Actiontec and turned it off on the D-Link, then fix some issues like the Drobo suddenly not getting an IP address. Then I had change the network cable coming from the Actiontec to the D-Link - it used to go into the D-Link's WAN port, now it had to go into a regular port. This meant I had to unplug my little server, as I was out of WAN ports.
Finally, I tried Fuppes on the Drobo and lo and behold, I managed to watch a video from the Drobo on the Xbox! Fuppes doesn't auto-update it's media store, though, and I found its web interface to be horrible. So I ended up installing Tversity on one of the desktops. Sure enough, I could see those videos, too!
So finally, my home network is back to the way it was six months ago, with video and audio streaming, except the files are now on a redundant storage mechanism.
Yay! Yay! Yay!
Although I should buy a 5-port gigabit switch so I can connect my server back up...
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 08:22:39 AM
Although I should buy a 5-port gigabit switch so I can connect my server back up...
I have 3 at home I don't use if you need one.
Quote from: Melbosa on July 25, 2011, 08:26:58 AM
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 08:22:39 AM
Although I should buy a 5-port gigabit switch so I can connect my server back up...
I have 3 at home I don't use if you need one.
Sure, although it might be more hassle to meet up than it is for me to run to MemEx and spend $20 to $30, given where we live and where we work...
Are you running a gigabit LAN? If not I have an 8 port bridge you can have.
The Actiontec is a gigabit router. The D-Link is not. So at the moment, my Telus set-top boxes and my Xbox are connected to the Actiontec and are on a gigabit LAN, while my two desktop computers and Drobo are connected to the D-Link and are not on a gigabit LAN.
I want to change this - I want it all to run gigabit. The desktops only have 100Mb network cards, so what I need is to replace my D-Link with a gigabit switch and then my desktops need gigabit cards.
That said, I have other plans for my setup, too. More RAM in the desktops, SSDs in the desktops, things like that. I'm even debating whether I really need/want a home server (it's got a loud fan!) now that I can't have it answer on port 80 anymore (Telus blocks port 80).
I'm just happy that my files are redundantly backed up while also being streamed to the Xbox.
Now we just need that next Doctor Who to come out!
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
Now we just need that next Doctor Who to come out!
Torchwood is currently running FYI if you don't mind mature content.
Well, if you're in the office and I can figure out where I hid the switch I'll bring it in tomorrow
If you're really hard up though I have 2, 24 port switches you can borrow :D (kinda hard misplacing those suckers!)
I've got a couple spare 10/100 switches. One 5 port, and one 8 port. I now have two GbE switches, so I really don't need the 100mb switches. Especially since my two wifi routers ALSO have switches on them (that I'm using, my main wifi ap's ports are almost full, as is the 8 port GbE switch beside it :-x).
Quote from: Tom on July 25, 2011, 11:58:05 AM
I've got a couple spare 10/100 switches. One 5 port, and one 8 port. I now have two GbE switches, so I really don't need the 100mb switches. Especially since my two wifi routers ALSO have switches on them (that I'm using, my main wifi ap's ports are almost full, as is the 8 port GbE switch beside it :-x).
I know you're in a double-wide but TWO wireless access points? Isn't that a bit overkill? :D
(j/k)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 25, 2011, 12:02:37 PM
Quote from: Tom on July 25, 2011, 11:58:05 AM
I've got a couple spare 10/100 switches. One 5 port, and one 8 port. I now have two GbE switches, so I really don't need the 100mb switches. Especially since my two wifi routers ALSO have switches on them (that I'm using, my main wifi ap's ports are almost full, as is the 8 port GbE switch beside it :-x).
I know you're in a double-wide but TWO wireless access points? Isn't that a bit overkill? :D
(j/k)
Heh. You'd think so, especially since my walls are 2x3 not 2x4. but my phone gets really @%&#ty reception in my room when my AP is in the living room. So I just plugged in my old AP in my room, and away I go. Been meaning to get around to terminating the Cat5e line running to my room. (p.s. I'm not in a double wide ;))
Lazy: I tried watching Torchwood, but I just couldn't get into it. And I don't want it on with the five year old watching, he's just not there yet. Maybe we'll just have to watch some classic Tom Baker.
Mr. A: Thanks. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm only interested if it's a gigabit switch. And no, I don't need a 24 port switch :P
Tom: Just use your rotary phone! Yes, really, he's still got a rotary hooked up and usable! 'twere hilarious to hear when I picked him up for D&D last time, that classic ringer.
If you want we can meet for lunch someday this week and I can get it to you then. The ones I have are 8 Ports I think... D-Links.
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 01:18:20 PM
Lazy: I tried watching Torchwood, but I just couldn't get into it. And I don't want it on with the five year old watching, he's just not there yet. Maybe we'll just have to watch some classic Tom Baker.
Mr. A: Thanks. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm only interested if it's a gigabit switch. And no, I don't need a 24 port switch :P
Tom: Just use your rotary phone! Yes, really, he's still got a rotary hooked up and usable! 'twere hilarious to hear when I picked him up for D&D last time, that classic ringer.
Heh yeah. Its awesome. At some point I want to make a pulse->tone adapter for it. so I can actually dial out with it.
Quote from: Tom on July 25, 2011, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 01:18:20 PM
Lazy: I tried watching Torchwood, but I just couldn't get into it. And I don't want it on with the five year old watching, he's just not there yet. Maybe we'll just have to watch some classic Tom Baker.
Mr. A: Thanks. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm only interested if it's a gigabit switch. And no, I don't need a 24 port switch :P
Tom: Just use your rotary phone! Yes, really, he's still got a rotary hooked up and usable! 'twere hilarious to hear when I picked him up for D&D last time, that classic ringer.
Heh yeah. Its awesome. At some point I want to make a pulse->tone adapter for it. so I can actually dial out with it.
Tom,Ehrm, pulse dialing still works on the Telus network.
Or are you on VOIP? I can't remember.
I'm using a
Northern Electric 500 Series with the bells disabled.
Thorin,When you do finally go all Gigabit if your router has a setting between auto-detect or specifically Gigabit, select Gigabit. I made this change and it seems like there is less discovery time for devices.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 25, 2011, 02:56:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on July 25, 2011, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Thorin on July 25, 2011, 01:18:20 PM
Lazy: I tried watching Torchwood, but I just couldn't get into it. And I don't want it on with the five year old watching, he's just not there yet. Maybe we'll just have to watch some classic Tom Baker.
Mr. A: Thanks. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm only interested if it's a gigabit switch. And no, I don't need a 24 port switch :P
Tom: Just use your rotary phone! Yes, really, he's still got a rotary hooked up and usable! 'twere hilarious to hear when I picked him up for D&D last time, that classic ringer.
Heh yeah. Its awesome. At some point I want to make a pulse->tone adapter for it. so I can actually dial out with it.
Tom,
Ehrm, pulse dialing still works on the Telus network.
Or are you on VOIP? I can't remember.
I'm using a Northern Electric 500 Series with the bells disabled.
I seem to have a Northham Telecom (c) 1968-1970. Says Made in Canada on the bottom too!
But yeah, I'm on voip. I have one of those Linksys PAP2 devices, which can't do pulse/rotary dialing.
Ooh, I'll have to look up that one. I know Northern Electric was the Canadian arm of Bell (originally the Bell Telephone Company of Canada, later NorTel), but I haven't heard of Northham Telecom before.
Northern Electric was originally formed because import restrictions on telephone technology from the US were so high it was just cheaper/easier to make the machinery (including the phones) here.
I'll bet you a dollar that the innards are all Bell components :D
Well, that same computer that broke two hard drives has now broken it's third (and last). We're down to a single desktop for right now, as I try to figure out how to get the money to replace it.
At the same time, I've had TVersity crash a few times now and rather than try to figure out why, I'm simply switching software. PS3MediaServer, here we come!
Still need to upgrade that router to a gigabit switch, but I'll need to figure out my missing-a-computer problem first.
<sigh>
Oh, and I wish I would've found these four articles before buying my Drobo:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/data-robotics-drobo-fs-nas-review-and-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/synology-ds411j-nas-review-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/netgear-readynas-ultra-4-review-and-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/qnap-ts419p-turbo-nas-review-giveaway/
I might not have bought the Drobo...
Quote from: Thorin on September 02, 2011, 05:38:00 PM
Well, that same computer that broke two hard drives has now broken it's third (and last). We're down to a single desktop for right now, as I try to figure out how to get the money to replace it.
At the same time, I've had TVersity crash a few times now and rather than try to figure out why, I'm simply switching software. PS3MediaServer, here we come!
Still need to upgrade that router to a gigabit switch, but I'll need to figure out my missing-a-computer problem first.
<sigh>
I'll scrape together some guts for ya, I have everything but a HDD to build a whole PC pretty much.
Quote from: Thorin on September 02, 2011, 05:39:58 PM
Oh, and I wish I would've found these four articles before buying my Drobo:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/data-robotics-drobo-fs-nas-review-and-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/synology-ds411j-nas-review-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/netgear-readynas-ultra-4-review-and-giveaway/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/qnap-ts419p-turbo-nas-review-giveaway/
I might not have bought the Drobo...
I've had a few scotch so... I don't get it. Potentially free Drobos?
Scotch: thumbsup
If I'd read those reviews, I'd've probably ended up buying a Synology DS-411j. You see, I bought the Drobo because of its BeyondRAID tech. The Synology has "Synology Hybrid RAID" and the Netgear has "X-RAID2", both of which work like BeyondRAID. And the DS-411j apparently works much better as a media server and has a much nicer user interface than the Drobo. With a better media server on the NAS itself, I wouldn't have to keep a computer running all day to watch shows from the NAS via the Xbox on the TV.
I'm seriously considering buying a new Dell, with an i5 and a bunch of RAM and 64-bit Windows. Dell's got pretty good deals on desktops at the moment: $529, no shipping, for i5-2400 + 4GB RAM + 500GB 7200rpm SATA + DVD-RW, no monitor. However, I'm not one to turn down free computers :)
I'm thinking at this point it's the power supply that's killing the drive controllers, so maybe all I need is a new PSU. Who knows.
If you want a new dell let me know as I can usually get them cheaper than the regular consumer
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
I'm also thinking about just buying a new chip, mobo, RAM, and PSU. Since I still have a case, keyboard, mouse, DVD-RW. Haven't decided yet :)
The cd-RW is probably IDE and new motherboards will probably be Pure sata.
Nope, the sick computer is about 3.5 years old and all-SATA. I'd be using the DVD-RW from it.
I'm still casting about trying to decide what to do, but the more I've read today the more I think it's the PSU that Dell put in that machine that was killing the drive controllers. So at the moment I'm thinking of buying a decent PSU - there's a PC Power & Supply 500w on sale for $70 at Newegg.ca, with a $20 mail-in rebate making it $50. Pretty damn cheap for excellent quality, from what I've read.
This'd be much easier if I had money to waste, then I'd just go brand new big rig with the latest components.
edit
Damn, that's a lot of connectors!
(http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/17-703-025-Z04)
(http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/17-703-025-Z06)
This is exactly why I buy PWSs with modular power connectors