http://www.bavga.co.uk/ (http://www.bavga.co.uk/)
and a sum-up page at VE3D:
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/35015/BAFTA-Games-Award-Winners-Announced (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/35015/BAFTA-Games-Award-Winners-Announced)
That should be BAFGA not BAFTA, shouldn't it?
The academy is still BAFTA these are just their awards. British Academy of Film and Television Arts
After doing some reading I can't believe my eyes. How could the ultra shallow Wii Sports be such a big winner. Strategy & Simulation?!?! How is that either? I will give it Innovation, Casual and Multiplayer. I just can't do Gameplay and Strategy & Simulation
I suppose, either way here's the list of winners:
2007 Winners
Innovation - Wii Sports
Artistic Achievement - Okami
Story and Character - God of War 2
Strategy and Simulation - Wii Sports
Casual - Wii Sports
Gameplay - Wii Sports
Multiplayer - Wii Sports
Action & Adventure - Crackdown
Technical Achievement - God of War 2
Sports - Wii Sports
Original Score - Okami
Use of Audio - Crackdown
Best Game - Bioshock
BAFTA Ones To Watch Award - Ragnarawk
The PC World Gamers Award (voted for by the public) - Football Manager 2007
Wii Sports seems a clear winner (not bad for a bundled game), God of War 2 also made a good showing...
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 10:58:09 AM
After doing some reading I can't believe my eyes. How could the ultra shallow Wii Sports be such a big winner. Strategy & Simulation?!?! How is that either? I will give it Innovation, Casual and Multiplayer. I just can't do Gameplay and Strategy & Simulation
Well apparently they liked it. They also think Raganarawk is "one to watch".
My list would look something like this...
Action and Adventure Crackdown (Xbox 360)
Artistic Achievement BioShock (Xbox 360)
Best Game BioShock (Xbox 360)
Casual Guitar Hero II (PS2)
Gameplay Gears of War (Xbox 360)
Innovation Wii Sports (Wii)
Multiplayer Wii Sports (Wii)
Sports Forza Motorsport 2 (Xbox 360)
Strategy and Simulation World in Conflict (PC)
Technical Achievement Gears of War (Xbox 360)
Use of Audio BioShock (Xbox 360)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:00:18 AMWell apparently they liked it. They also think Raganarawk is "one to watch".
They can like it all they want but its hardly a Strategy or Simulation game.
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 10:58:09 AM
After doing some reading I can't believe my eyes. How could the ultra shallow Wii Sports be such a big winner. Strategy & Simulation?!?! How is that either? I will give it Innovation, Casual and Multiplayer. I just can't do Gameplay and Strategy & Simulation
Maybe they think it simulates bowling really well?
Quote
Strategy & Simulation
For games that have a high degree of strategic elements where gameplay is centered around decision-making skills, and/or attempted simulations of real world scenarios.
Games covered include management simulations, life simulations, flight simulations and real-time strategy simulations.
...thats a very large stretch seeing as Boxing, Golf, Tennis are all horribly done "simulation wise" bowling is slightly better. Great fun in a party environment but Simulator?!? Seriously.
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:02:18 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:00:18 AMWell apparently they liked it. They also think Raganarawk is "one to watch".
They can like it all they want but its hardly a Strategy or Simulation game.
I guess you have to start with defining what is "Strategy" or "Simulation". Would a flight simulator where you pretend to perform physical actions (controlling a plane) qualify as a "simulation"? Would a bowling simulator where you pretend to perform physical actions (controlling a bowling ball) qualify as a "simulation"? Or does "simulation" mean something less broad to you?
I think they should have split those two categories. Strategy and Simulation games can be wholly and completely different.
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:01:47 AM
Technical Achievement Gears of War (Xbox 360)
What technical obstacles did
Gears of War surmount and surpass? From what I have read
God of War II had to really push the PS2 architecture to the limit to make it look amazing and playable on 7 year old hardware.
Sure, I can see them needing to be two different categories, but do you honestly believe that Wii sports provides a "realistic simulation" of any of the sports its has? I will admit that bowling isn't bad, but I'm surprised to see that I go from being a sub 100 bowler to nearly a 200 bowler in Wii Sports. Golf is the worst one though the fact that its much easier to play if you sit on the couch and simply wrist flick (Wiimote pointing towards the ceiling). Tennis doesnt need you to switch position to backhand/forehand. Boxing is just a matter of who can push the controller forward fastest.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:10:49 AMWhat technical obstacles did Gears of War surmount and surpass? From what I have read God of War II had to really push the PS2 architecture to the limit to make it look amazing and playable on 7 year old hardware.
Have you seen it? I'd say its a bigger technical achievement to create the best looking game out
still on new and untested hardware versus building on what others have done over 7 years to get what you got now. If anything I think the technical achievement shouldn't be just limited to games it should be more technology focused an in that regard I would put Unreal 3 Engine as the winner.
I agree that Wii Sports winning in the simulation category is a stretch at most. I'd like to see BAFTAs argument for it.
All it simulates is me making strange hand gestures...
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:14:56 AMHave you seen it? I'd say its a bigger technical achievement to create the best looking game out still on new and untested hardware versus building on what others have done over 7 years to get what you got now. If anything I think the technical achievement shouldn't be just limited to games it should be more technology focused an in that regard I would put Unreal 3 Engine as the winner.
Oh please, I've seen it and it's a very nice game (not doubting that), but it's not like the developers had to figure out how to load and process all that video through severely limited hardware, that's a technical
achievement.
I disagree.
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:06:12 AM
...thats a very large stretch seeing as Boxing, Golf, Tennis are all horribly done "simulation wise" bowling is slightly better. Great fun in a party environment but Simulator?!? Seriously.
Well, lets compare it to the other simulations in the category: Forza Motorsports 2 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas (Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars, Medieval II: Total War Kingdoms, and World In Conflict are all strategy games, right?).
Forza Motorsports 2: You're steering a car with a joystick controlled with your thumb.
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas: You're making a guy with a gun walk around with a joystick controlled with your thumb. You're making him shoot by pushing your other thumb on the X button.
Wii Sports: You're picking up a bowling ball by holding a trigger with your finger, then making the ball roll down a bowling lane by moving your arm in a manner similar to how you would throw a bowling ball and releasing the trigger at the right time.
Wii Sports gets closer to simulating a real-world scenario than the other two when looking at the actions required of the player. In that sense it is a better simulator. Level of graphical detail? Length of play to get through the story? I'm sure Forza and Rainbow Six beat Wii Sports in both of those categories hands down. But "simulation" has nothing to do with graphical detail or plot, IMHO.
Again, I don't think that the Strategy and Simulation categories should have been mushed together.
Forza 2 is a lot more then steering a car on a track with your thumb.
Vegas I will give you that, its hardly a simulator of any sort of stretch of the imagination. By their definition Doom would be a simulator :P
Flicking my wrist at the ceiling and letting go of a button is close to swinging a golf club? When was the last time you golfed? :P
Quote from: Thorin on October 24, 2007, 11:22:35 AM
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:06:12 AM
...thats a very large stretch seeing as Boxing, Golf, Tennis are all horribly done "simulation wise" bowling is slightly better. Great fun in a party environment but Simulator?!? Seriously.
Well, lets compare it to the other simulations in the category: Forza Motorsports 2 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas (Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars, Medieval II: Total War Kingdoms, and World In Conflict are all strategy games, right?).
Forza Motorsports 2: You're steering a car with a joystick controlled with your thumb.
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas: You're making a guy with a gun walk around with a joystick controlled with your thumb. You're making him shoot by pushing your other thumb on the X button.
Wii Sports: You're picking up a bowling ball by holding a trigger with your finger, then making the ball roll down a bowling lane by moving your arm in a manner similar to how you would throw a bowling ball and releasing the trigger at the right time.
Wii Sports gets closer to simulating a real-world scenario than the other two when looking at the actions required of the player. In that sense it is a better simulator. Level of graphical detail? Length of play to get through the story? I'm sure Forza and Rainbow Six beat Wii Sports in both of those categories hands down. But "simulation" has nothing to do with graphical detail or plot, IMHO.
Again, I don't think that the Strategy and Simulation categories should have been mushed together.
The Rainbow Six, as far as I can tell simulates tactical situations to the point where planning is a necessary and vital element to the game. Simulation goes beyond just mimicking the thing being done but must try, as realistically as possible, to emulate reality. Racing games can compete equally with city building strategy games or combat flight sims if they ground themselves in reality.
MrA, the only iteration of Rainbox6 that I recall tactical planning and execution being important is the first one. R6V was basically a first person shooter. Their was no planning before missions or anything of the sort. Still one of the better games I played this year, but by no means a simulator anymore. They went FPS first.
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:29:36 AM
MrA, the only iteration of Rainbox6 that I recall tactical planning and execution being important is the first one. R6V was basically a first person shooter. Their was no planning before missions or anything of the sort. Still one of the better games I played this year, but by no means a simulator anymore. They went FPS first.
I stand corrected I've not followed the series since the first one. I was just reading about Vegas, one of the new elements was you regenerate health. Ok, well now it's just pure fantasy right there.
Agreed 100%
Well, see, I play Wii Golf the way the developers intended, rather than planting my butt on the couch and playing it the lazy way. Even if that makes it more difficult to be good at. Nevertheless, my example was Wii Bowling, not Wii Golf.
How does Forza 2 simulate motorsports? Do you crank wrenches? Does your driver die when he crashes? Do you have to balance the books to try and make it to every race? Do your tires wear down unevenly? Do you have a stash of spare motors and transmissions and axles and body parts to ensure that you can keep racing? Or do you just restart from your save point when you crash?
In real motorsports, one of the biggest problems is balancing pushing the car so far that you win with pushing the car too far and crashing. Rich teams can push their cars more because they can afford to fix them more often. Poor teams can't. Non-sponsored racers frequently don't place in the top 30% to 50% of the pack because they're simply unwilling to risk their ride home at the track. Does Forza 2 simulate all that, or does it really just simulate the driving aspect and relegate the parts-and-accessories portion to unlocking level-ups? I haven't played Forza 2 so I can't say, but I'm guessing that you do get money to buy parts with but the parts are not available until you do something in-game to unlock them, and I'm guessing that you can save your game so that if a race is going badly you can undo the race and not have it affect you for the rest of your racer's career.
It all comes back to what our definition of "simulation" is. And it's entirely possible the Brits have defined it differently than we have.
Perhaps playing Forza 2 with the Xbox Wireless Racing Wheel would have qualified it as the winner of the simulation category. If they came with pedals, I'd say it'd be at least on par with how Wii Bowling simulates real-life actions by the player.
Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode. Trying to move throughout the levels Rambo style will get you and your squad killed very quickly. You have to work together, and diversifying your equipment loadout and working together for best tactful advantage is by far a requirement to move through out the game. 4 player co-op through the story is not only a lot different than your standard FPS run and shoot, it is downright satisfying when your squad works together to complete the goals laid out in every mission versus just kill everyone you see. You have to check the doors before opening them, you have to be wary of the sounds you make (including reloading clips, leaning on thin walls, walking through water), and also have to utilize strategic opportunities to meet mission objectives (utilizing your equipment for best advantage - flash bangs/smoke/tear gas, flanking or covering squad movement, positioning sniper cover while advancing your medium range squad members, or setting your short-range high damage squad member - read: shotguns - on point when in close quarters, cover and droplines for tactiful advantages, etc. Up until Vegas I absolutely hated Tom Clancy games, none impressed me, but after frag, then a recent lan party I attended, this is by far one of the best AI put against a group of 4 co-op players, and one of the most challenging even with a well developed squad deployment.
Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars. It is probably one of the most realistic driving games ever developed. Just as Microsoft Flight Simulator is used by Avionics techs to try out modifications to avionics (I have two clients in Edmonton that are avionic engineers, and they utilize MFS to test out their stuff to save their client's the cost of a million dollar modification that fails on an actual test before actually doing a live test run).
Quote from: Thorin on October 24, 2007, 11:37:35 AM
It all comes back to what our definition of "simulation" is. And it's entirely possible the Brits have defined it differently than we have.
Quote from: From Ask Oxofordsimulate
? verb imitate or reproduce the appearance, character, or conditions of.
Forza Motorsport 2 faithfully reproduces the topography of the following real world tracks:
Tracks
There are 13 tracks which total 47 different configurations:
Real-world tracks
* Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca
* Mugello Autodromo Internazionale
* N?rburgring Nordschleife
* Road Atlanta
* Sebring International Raceway
* Silverstone Circuit
* Suzuka Circuit
* Tsukuba Circuit
* Twin Ring Motegi
The racing characteristics of the following real world cars:
Production Cars
* Class D: Standard production cars including the Ford Focus SVT and the Volkswagen Golf GTI
* Class C: Sport production cars including the Audi S4 and the Nissan Fairlady Z
* Class B: Performance production cars including the Porsche Cayman S and the Aston Martin V12 Vanquish
* Class A: High-performance production cars including the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 and the TVR Tuscan R
* Class S: Ultrahigh-performance production cars like the SLR McLaren and the Porsche Carrera GT
* Class U: Unlimited-class cars including the Chrysler ME Four-Twelve concept car and the TVR Cerbera Speed 12
Race Cars
* Class R4: Heavily modified production cars and purpose-built race cars including the Subaru GT300 Impreza and the Porsche 911 GT3 Cup
* Class R3: High-end purpose-built race cars including the Dodge Viper GTS-R and Nissan GT500 Skyline
* Class R2: Ultrahigh-end purpose-built race cars including the McLaren F1 GTR and the Chevrolet Corvette C6.R
* Class R1: Prototype race cars including the Peugeot 905C and the Audi R8
The game itself also interfaces with a driving wheel, and simulates the effects of car damage. If you asked me which game was a more accurate simulation of real life, I would have to go with Forza.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:30:59 AM
I stand corrected I've not followed the series since the first one. I was just reading about Vegas, one of the new elements was you regenerate health. Ok, well now it's just pure fantasy right there.
Quote from: ThorinHow does Forza 2 simulate motorsports? Do you crank wrenches? Does your driver die when he crashes? Do you have to balance the books to try and make it to every race? Do your tires wear down unevenly? Do you have a stash of spare motors and transmissions and axles and body parts to ensure that you can keep racing? Or do you just restart from your save point when you crash?
Guys it still has to be a bit of a game to make it fun. If you died and had to start from the beginning of the whole game would you continue to play it? Is that realism worth the purchase? Or is it just frustrating. Vegas is so easy to die, it can almost become too frustraiting. Yes you regen, but the chances of you surviving more than one hit to the chest is so tiny; a hit to the head and your dead for sure.
Quote from: Thorin
In real motorsports, one of the biggest problems is balancing pushing the car so far that you win with pushing the car too far and crashing. Rich teams can push their cars more because they can afford to fix them more often. Poor teams can't. Non-sponsored racers frequently don't place in the top 30% to 50% of the pack because they're simply unwilling to risk their ride home at the track. Does Forza 2 simulate all that, or does it really just simulate the driving aspect and relegate the parts-and-accessories portion to unlocking level-ups? I haven't played Forza 2 so I can't say, but I'm guessing that you do get money to buy parts with but the parts are not available until you do something in-game to unlock them, and I'm guessing that you can save your game so that if a race is going badly you can undo the race and not have it affect you for the rest of your racer's career.
It has the ability for you to modify everything you can think of on the car specs. Tweak air pressure, shock response, break designs, etc. It tracks cintrifical {sp?} forces on the tires during turns. It is quite the game for how detailed you can be, never mind the 1000+ layers of paint designs you can put on the cars. In fact it is so realistic that I hate playing it, but I know Cova loves it. I need a bit of arcadiness in my racing to enjoy the game (burnout for instance).
Quote from: Thorin on October 24, 2007, 11:36:20 AM
How does Forza 2 simulate motorsports? Do you crank wrenches? Does your driver die when he crashes? Do you have to balance the books to try and make it to every race? Do your tires wear down unevenly? Do you have a stash of spare motors and transmissions and axles and body parts to ensure that you can keep racing? Or do you just restart from your save point when you crash?
Wrenches, yes.
Dies, No.
Balance Books, yes.
Tire Wear Unevenly, yes.
Different Parts, yes.
Restart From Save, yes.
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AM
Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.
Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AMForza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.
I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AMRainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.
You found that to be true? My brother and I didn't get that feeling much at all. Sure you have communicate to those around you such as "cover the door, I'm gonna flank around the outside" but thats not really all that simulated. If that were the case wouldn't Counter-Strike be the perennial winner?
I found the AI to be weak at best and never really did anything tactically amazing. Normally they'd just sit behind cover and fire wildly or run at you while firing wildly. The AI of my squad was superior, but the enemy left me wanting.
To be honest I don't play a lot of co-op/online much these days as I find the 13 year old wankers on the other end to be rather offensive and unfun to play with. With a group of 4 guys and enemies set to have extreme density I could see it being tough but thats only due to the massive amounts of guys and the fact that shots can kill you instantly.
I'll say this about Vegas. As for a Simulation, it isn't so much the FPS part that I consider simulated but the tactiful nature of the game. Tactics IMO in the game are a nessessity against the well designed AI. This is the PC version mind you, I am not sure how much more difficult or easier the 360 version might have been to combat the lack of Mouse accuracy in an FPS versus Joystick control on a controller. Another aspect was the ability to shot through cover depending on the calibur of gun/bullets used, adding another tactic that could be employed.
As a comparison, with two games that utilize cover heavily, Gears of War and Vegas are two very different games, very differently played, and similar only in FPS shot people terms, or the use of cover with blind-fire abilities.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AMDo you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?
Not to the level that you recall. You can direct (in game) your AI squad mates to go to a door and do a number of actions like clear the room, throw a flash, blow open the door, etc. I normally had my AI do it so that I wouldn't get killed doing it myself.
Yeah, I have that same definition for "simulate". What's missing is whether they based their decision on the games ability to imitate or reproduce the appearance, character, or conditions of outcomes due to players' actions, or the games ability to imitate or reproduce the players' actions themselves.
Do they consider a very detailed world with excellent physics where the player's interaction with the world is via joystick and X button more or less than a non-descript world where the player's interaction maps closely to the player's actual movements?
And that's where we all seem to think that the excellent physics make the game a better simulator, whereas the reviewers might think the closer mapping between a player's actions to the in-game actions make the game a better simulator.
The problem I have is that Wii Sports doesn't "closely map to the player's actual movements". If you've ever played tennis its a lot more then just swinging a forehand constantly without moving. I gotta go back to Golf though as this game truely annoys me. If I do a full swing as I would on the course (and do a half dozen or more times a year) I can put full power and get a straight drive. In Wii golf if you put anything more into a swing outside of a gentle follow through you get that red wiggly bar and a massive hook/slice that seems random as to which it gives. The issue I have with the Wii controller and simulating any actual human activity is the loss of tactile feedback.
So yes, I would say that simulating an actual event with fancy graphics and a rock solid physics model is more of a simulator then waggling a Wiimote.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AM
Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.
Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?
Yes, we had to plan that very much so, especially after playing a map once, and getting a feel for the layout. Problem (and one I like as a challenge) is that the enemies aren't always in the same place on a map the next time you go through, so having someone watch your 6 as you move through a hallway was a necessity being that you could be flanked at any time. Again the PC version has a lot of patches already which may have improved AI beyond the 360 version; unfortunately I am unsure as to the differences.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AMForza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.
I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.
Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ (http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/) but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago). Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such. Google can be your friend. ;)
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AMDo you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?
Not to the level that you recall. You can direct (in game) your AI squad mates to go to a door and do a number of actions like clear the room, throw a flash, blow open the door, etc. I normally had my AI do it so that I wouldn't get killed doing it myself.
I see.
Have you tried the PC version? Is there a difference in the AI do you think?
Either way, getting back to the original conversation, I'm pretty sure now that
Rainbow Six: Vegas couldn't be considered a simulation, mostly because of all the fantastical or speculative elements. If you had a game where you used swat teams in co-ordinated planned counter terrorist manoeuvres in real world locations following established protocols (i.e. safety measures, etc) then it would be.
I mean
Battlefield 2 is dressed up to
look real, but it's a far cry from reality.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 12:02:32 PMHave you tried the PC version? Is there a difference in the AI do you think?
No, but I have no doubt. I find gaming on my big screen on a comfy leather sofa and surround sound much more enjoyable and relaxing then being cramped at my desk in front of a keyboard and mouse :P Personal pref im sure.
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 12:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AM
Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.
Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?
Yes, we had to plan that very much so, especially after playing a map once, and getting a feel for the layout. Problem (and one I like as a challenge) is that the enemies aren't always in the same place on a map the next time you go through, so having someone watch your 6 as you move through a hallway was a necessity being that you could be flanked at any time. Again the PC version has a lot of patches already which may have improved AI beyond the 360 version; unfortunately I am unsure as to the differences.
But planning is not a part of the actual game play, it's
a strategy. I just can't see any argument to consider it a Sim. Now, that probably means it's a lot more fun to play. Not debating that :)
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 12:01:36 PMQuote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AMForza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.
I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.
Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ (http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/) but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago). Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such. Google can be your friend. ;)
I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you ;)
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 12:06:15 PM
I find gaming on my big screen on a comfy leather sofa and surround sound much more enjoyable and relaxing then being cramped at my desk in front of a keyboard and mouse :P Personal pref im sure.
WAY off topic mate.
probably, just providing further explanation of my excuse why i haven't played X game on X platform.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 12:06:32 PM
I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you ;)
Nor do I expect you too! :D
Quote from: Shayne on October 24, 2007, 12:00:25 PM
The problem I have is that Wii Sports doesn't "closely map to the player's actual movements". If you've ever played tennis its a lot more then just swinging a forehand constantly without moving. I gotta go back to Golf though as this game truely annoys me. If I do a full swing as I would on the course (and do a half dozen or more times a year) I can put full power and get a straight drive. In Wii golf if you put anything more into a swing outside of a gentle follow through you get that red wiggly bar and a massive hook/slice that seems random as to which it gives. The issue I have with the Wii controller and simulating any actual human activity is the loss of tactile feedback.
So yes, I would say that simulating an actual event with fancy graphics and a rock solid physics model is more of a simulator then waggling a Wiimote.
And I agree with you that a simulation is more than just how the player interacts. I was trying to provide an explanation of why the reviewers from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts might have considered it a simulation. If I were to guess, I'd say the reviewers weren't really gamers to begin with (much like I'm not really a gamer). This would explain why they would have qualified Wii Sports as a Simulator (because it's definitely not Strategy).
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 12:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on October 24, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on October 24, 2007, 11:41:11 AM
Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.
I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.
Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ (http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/) but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago). Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such. Google can be your friend. ;)
I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you ;)
The original article I had read about it is here: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass38.htm
A few select quotes from it for lazy people...
QuoteSoon, Melo and Salo began a friendly bout of smack-talking, taking turns on the simulator, chasing each other's ghost on the track, and lopping off seconds with every other go. After about 3 laps each, they were shaving laptimes down to the 2:03 to 2:04 mark. At one point, Mika Salo turns to me and asks, "Do you guys have (the circuit) Long Beach in this game? I've never driven it before and I need to learn it for the next race." Although I had to explain that Forza Motorsport 2 was not a dedicated ALMS game, it felt great to have Mika Salo tell you that Forza Motorsport 2 and the triple-screen setup is something he would purchase to practice for races.
QuoteThose of you who followed the 12 Hours of Sebring already know that Melo then went out there on the real track and nabbed pole position for GT2 class. His time? 2:02.439, which was just a second faster than his fastest laptime in Forza Motorsport 2
QuoteThursday's gameplay session with the Risi drivers was an absolute success story for Turn 10. We not only discovered that our game met their quality bar in terms of realism, but also that Forza 2 was actually useful in helping them memorize their lines and hone their reflexes on Sebring.
As for my opinions on the topic - yes I consider Forza 2 to be a simulator (specifically a racing simulator - simulating what happens outside of the race, eg. not having the cash to pay for repairs is considered out of scope of the game and a factor that would make it less fun). I would not consider rainbow-six to be a simulator, or CS or other games like that - IMHO they aren't close enough to reality. Wii sports is most definately not a simulator of any kind, its an arcade game.
Quote from: Cova on October 24, 2007, 01:25:39 PM
The original article I had read about it is here: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass38.htm
Here's the layout that the race car drivers were using:
(http://forzamotorsport.net/NR/rdonlyres/5AEB87C4-92CE-4EF9-A489-87CE3167BEC1/8691/IMG_0010.jpg)
(http://forzamotorsport.net/NR/rdonlyres/5AEB87C4-92CE-4EF9-A489-87CE3167BEC1/8692/IMG_0025.jpg)
Yeah, that'd be fun to play with, even if it were Need For Speed: Super-de-duper-de-Carbon-de-Canyon-de-Cop-Car
Notice that they have three Xbox360s. Is Forza Motorsports 2 capable of providing three different views off of three different Xbox360s at the same time? Would there be any issues with lag?
I believe (id have to google) that Forza can do up to 6 or 8 Xbox 360s showing different views with no lag.
Forza 2 supports up to 4-screen play (the image above is only 3-screen - add a rear-view screen to be maxed out), and every screen needs its own 360 to run it. All those 360's must be on a local low-latency network (no LAN or wireless - plug 'em all into a small switch) If you want, you can then uplink that small switch to your LAN, and still add in other players on their own 360's too. So the absolute maximum 360's you could have in a Forza 2 race would be 32 (8 people playing over Live, all with 4-screen setups)
Then in that case, Forza 2 absolutely, positively, should've been picked as the #1 simulator. All it's missing is actuators to move the chair around and provide fake g-forces.
Of course, a 4-screen set up with a force-feedback wheel and properly positioned racing chair and speakers might be prohibitively expensive for most gamers... But damn, that'd be fun to play!
Quote from: Thorin on October 24, 2007, 02:40:45 PM
Then in that case, Forza 2 absolutely, positively, should've been picked as the #1 simulator. All it's missing is actuators to move the chair around and provide fake g-forces.
Of course, a 4-screen set up with a force-feedback wheel and properly positioned racing chair and speakers might be prohibitively expensive for most gamers... But damn, that'd be fun to play!
Actually all its missing is a well-defined interface for providing g-force information out to 3rd party hardware, which could be hooked up to your chair. The Forza dev's didn't design the MS ForceFeedback wheel - they just provided a force-feedback control interface that'll work with any 360 wheel (the fact that there is only 1 FF wheel right now isn't their concern either). Forza does already calculate all the G-force information that would be needed for a full motion cockpit, you can watch it in real-time while you race or watch replays if you turn on the telemetry (up on D-pad). Also, Forza already sends some car vibration information out with the audio in the LFE channel - if all you have is a big sub then you can almost feel the vibration if yer going over ruble-strip type pavement (eg. the curbs inside the corners), but it's meant to be connected to a ButKicker, which they also have setup in that 3-screen setup above.