My polky Polk Audio subwoofer bit the dust, and I think its past its warranty date. Does anyone have any recommendations for a good sub. I currently have 100w pioneer bookshelf speakers in a 5 speaker setup. Incidentally, I have a dead sub to give away if someone is good at reviving such things :)
You know who I blame? The Polkaroo!
I personally recommend the following for home subs, but is more expensive, although the sound quality is by far the best.
2 Car Subs - 10"
2 Single Enclosure car boxes
1 Secondary AMP/Receiver to power the Subs
1 Y RCA Splitter
3 RCA Cables
Speaker wire, far enough to run to either side of your primary seating area
You use the Sub out on your receiver with 1 RCA Cable, to the Y Splitter, then 2 RCA Cables to the left and right ins on one of the inputs on your secondary reciever/amp. Then run Speaker wire to the 2 boxes with the car subs, positioned on both sides of your primary seating area - do not position them near your TV, as they are not magnetically insulated and will cause a polarization of your TV Tube.
The audio quality is unbeatable by house sub standards. Added bonus is that you have a magnatude (depending on your secondary receiver/amp) of choices for the sound variations on your sub channel, including - but not limited to - a secondary audio volume level - which is usually a lot larger varient than the sub audio DB adjustment that most receivers have on their sub out channel.
Quote from: "Melbosa"2 Car Subs - 10"
Yes, you will need much insulation with this setup.
Quote from: "Melbosa"I personally recommend the following for home subs, but is more expensive, although the sound quality is by far the best.
2 Car Subs - 10"
2 Single Enclosure car boxes
1 Secondary AMP/Receiver to power the Subs
1 Y RCA Splitter
3 RCA Cables
Speaker wire, far enough to run to either side of your primary seating area
You use the Sub out on your receiver with 1 RCA Cable, to the Y Splitter, then 2 RCA Cables to the left and right ins on one of the inputs on your secondary reciever/amp. Then run Speaker wire to the 2 boxes with the car subs, positioned on both sides of your primary seating area - do not position them near your TV, as they are not magnetically insulated and will cause a polarization of your TV Tube.
The audio quality is unbeatable by house sub standards. Added bonus is that you have a magnatude (depending on your secondary receiver/amp) of choices for the sound variations on your sub channel, including - but not limited to - a secondary audio volume level - which is usually a lot larger varient than the sub audio DB adjustment that most receivers have on their sub out channel.
Umm, that sounds cool, but I'm afraid that sounds a bit too complicated from me. Maybe when I buy a house or something down the line.
Energy tends to be a good brand for home audio speakers.
Nuaunce is a total cash grab if you ever get presured by a sales droid run away.
It also depends on the kind of money you want to spend, Klipsch is good, but tends on the higher end of the stick.
Ya might want to check out SVS, I've heard nothing but good things about them, basically they started out as a bunch of audio geeks and ended up becoming a brand name. For what you get they are affordable.
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/
Quote from: "Melbosa"2 Car Subs - 10"
If you're going this route, keep in mind that speakers come in different impedance ratings, and amplifiers have minimum impedances they can support. Typical car subs have 4 Ohm impedance rating, while typical house stereos require 8 Ohms minimum impedance per channel. There are, of course, 8 Ohm car subs, and house stereos that support 4 Ohm loads, but you have to actually look for them.
Some other things to consider with car subs:
- car enclosures are generally carpeted in a neutral grey to blend in with the trunk carpeting; this doesn't look nearly as nice as a well-finished wooden house sub box
- car enclosures are typically trapezoidal rather than square, as they are normally built to wedge against your back seat
- generic car subs and generic car enclosures are not specifically engineered for each other; house subs and their enclosures are typically specifically engineered for each other
Given your current set-up and living room size, I'd say look for a 10" powered sub with 100 to 150 watts. Look for level and cross-over adjustment knobs on the back so you can finetune how boomy your sub is.
I like downfiring subs because I have kids and it's almost impossible for them to break the cone or put things in the port, and also they look better, to me (I think music that just magically appears in the room is better than looking at a bunch of speaker arrays).
As for brand names? I can't even remember what I bought three years ago. It's given me no troubles, so there's been no need to look it up. Don't bother with Sony subs. Pioneer might be alright, although probably pricey. Klipsch is a name I've heard before, and Energy (although I've never heard their subs).
Quote from: "Thorin"Quote from: "Melbosa"2 Car Subs - 10"
If you're going this route, keep in mind that speakers come in different impedance ratings, and amplifiers have minimum impedances they can support. Typical car subs have 4 Ohm impedance rating, while typical house stereos require 8 Ohms minimum impedance per channel. There are, of course, 8 Ohm car subs, and house stereos that support 4 Ohm loads, but you have to actually look for them.
Some other things to consider with car subs:
- car enclosures are generally carpeted in a neutral grey to blend in with the trunk carpeting; this doesn't look nearly as nice as a well-finished wooden house sub box
- car enclosures are typically trapezoidal rather than square, as they are normally built to wedge against your back seat
- generic car subs and generic car enclosures are not specifically engineered for each other; house subs and their enclosures are typically specifically engineered for each other
This is all true. Your describing my setup completely :D.
The impedance though usually applies - when talking what you hear - to the range of the varient in sound waves - therefore if you pump too much power through a lower impedence, your speaker "pops"; conversly if you pump too much power through a higher impedence your speakers distort. This is why the DB level in Cars are usually much higher than those in the House, plus your car speakers are ususally rated at a higher amperage. Now Car subs also are rated with a high and low OHMs level, as if you run them in series or parallel - or if you are like me and use DVCs and pump through both sides - you can drop the impedence down even lower, allowing more sound through them at the same amperage.
Base sound levels, specifically the sub channel of most movies, aren't really affected by this unless you are trying to over-power your subs - 400 watts to a 300 watt sub. Most house systems, if talking primarily the receivers with the built in sub speaker out - not the preout - typically only do 75-150 watts. Most home power subs, in the average consumer bracket, are between 100-200 watts. For the same price, you can usually get a 400-500 watts worth of a car sub and a $50 old receiver to power them.
I'm not trying to convince you though. I know my solution is the more expensive and more to setup. Just when I had mine setup (my sub speakers were always hidden by the coffee tables and couches, and already had the subs and single enclosure boxes) when we compared my "theatre" experience to those of friends - including peeps with a full Nuaunce, Energy and Bose systems - my 2 Pioneer towers, 2 pioneer rear mids, Energy centre, and 2 car subs for base; far out classed all in the end. Of course, I must admit, my receiver was on average a higher model than those compared to.
Forgot to mention Infinity and JBL, other brands I've heard good things about.
Also, when you're looking for your sub look for the response frequencies. The lower the lowest response frequency, the more interesting sounds you'll hear that you would never hear over your TV speakers.
And I can't seem to find any downfiring subwoofers to give sample links :(
Infinity has actually taken a hit in the past couple of years. Despite Ustauk's experience, Polk Audio has over taken them in the market.
Yeah I feel your pain about links. The audio scene is so subjective that most reviews just conflict with eachother. If I didn't have my sources (a couple of peeps from highschool work for various music component manufaturers in the industry), I would be as lost at finding out.
I still find Pioneer isn't bad for the $$$ involved. Not the best in the biz, but good bang for your buck.
Has Polk Audio gotten any better? I can get a 10" sub for $225 and 12" sub for either $275 or $375 (can't quite remember which the fellow said) through a company that deals with my workplace. The reviews on the Futureshop site (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10049596&catid=) of the 10" were positive. I think the frying of the sub may be partly my fault. Sometimes it would start humming for no reason. I would flick the cable, and it would stop. I don't know how many times this happened when I wasn't around, so this could have led to its premature demise.
In the medium range of speakers (although I believe Polk has a new highend line), they are rated decent. Not the most power or sound, but a decent buy. I know my buddy Squatch (name used to protect the innocent) has his whole system running Polk, and its only over 1 or 2 old. Sounds good :D
Need an example of a down-firing sub? Come see my living room :)
I'm really quite happy with my setup, picked up a receiver and 6.1 speaker kit a while back (no, the receiver wasn't part of the speaker package - 2 lines on receipt), and the only thing that I'm not 100% happy with is that the volume drops off very quickly as you move away from the living room, but some people might consider that a good thing (I tend to like to turn up the receiver so I can listen anywhere in the house or yard - I can't leave the house and hear much of anything though with this setup). All Harmon-Kardon, receiver and speakers.
Yep, Harman Kardon is an excellent brand as well. As for not hearing the sound out in the yard, I think that might have more to do with the walls in the way. Try removing the walls. Oh, wait, winter's coming... :P
Seriously, though, what part of the volume drops off quickly? The sub-bass? The bass? The mid-range? The treble? In car audio mid-range and treble is drastically altered and reduced by interfering objects such as seats and human body parts (for instance, speakers down low in the doors can be blocked by your legs). If the mid-range and treble drops off more quickly than the bass and sub-bass, the problem will most likely be that there's no direct path from the speakers to your ears.
I'd almost suggest picking up some high-current switches and some outdoor speakers, running some speaker wire outside, and switching your main left and right speakers between inside and outside. You'd have to look at the amount of amperage and voltage traveling over the wires and make sure your switches can handle it...
Oh, and by "switching" I mean wiring the switches into the speaker wires so that you can select to have audio come from either the inside or the outside speakers.
So, uhh, Ustauk, we didn't ever answer your question, did we? :P
I have a 10" downfiring Soundstage Stage 100 sub; nowadays they're called Stage 10, and they're no longer downfiring, unfortunately. Its black casing blends in perfectly with the rest of the stereo stand, and most people don't realize it's there unless I point it out to them.
The crossover frequency is set using a knob, going from 50 Hertz to 150 Hertz. I've got it set at about 100 Hertz, letting the rest of the speakers handle low-mid-range.
The built-in 150 watt amplifier has a level adjustment on the back, also a knob. Level adjustment is supposed to be used to adjust how sensitive the amplifier is to the incoming signal. If the signal is weak, the amplifier needs to be more sensitive. If the signal is strong, the amplifier needs to be less sensitive. Typically, signals below 1 volt are considered weak, signals above 2 volts are considered strong. I've got mine set to in the middle, as I have no idea what my amplifier puts out on the Sub Out channel. The bass is neither boomy nor missing, so I must be close to the mark.
When I bought it three years ago, it was $299 (boxing week special). I would expect to pay about $400 to $500 for a sub like this now. Because of my positive experience with this sub, I would suggest a similar sub for your system. I can turn it loud enough that the neighbours across the street hear it while it's in my basement, but I don't usually do that :P The power seems to be well-balanced with the rest of the system, which is a couple of cheaper tower and surround speakers getting fed from an 80 watt per channel amplifier.
From car audio I learned that you want anywhere from two to four times as much power going to your subwoofer as your all-range or mid-range/treble speakers.
So I hope all that helps. And as far as buying the Polk Audio, well, did you like the one you had? If so, get the Consumer Reports booklet and see if it has at least an average rating...
Thanks for all the advice. I think I'm going to hit A&B and Futureshop tomorrow at lunch, and listen to a few subwoofers.
downfiring = better?
i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not. In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.
The entire volume range drops off quite quickly - I think its because (except for the sub) the speakers are all very small (about 6" high by a few wide and a few deep - outside dimensions, I don't remember the actual driver sizes). They sound really great while yer in the middle of them all, and still pretty damn good if you're just near-by (say, in the kitchen), but go down in the basement (even right under them) or out of the house (even with all windows/doors open) and there's no volume left at all.
It's annoying when I want to be somewhere other than the 1/2 of my main floor that gets good sound coverage, but it's great for late-night movie watching - I can crank it up and not worry about neighbors at all.
And for reference - I paid $1000 for my receiver + 6.1 speaker setup. The speakers alone were listed for $600 (5 satellites + center + sub) but I got the guy at future-shop down to .. $450 I think for the speakers. With the quality I'm hearing from them I can't really recommend going with something more expensive (eg. $400 for just a sub)
Quote from: "Shayne"downfiring = better?
i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not. In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.
From car audio, I learned that facing the subwoofer cone away from the listener made the source of the sound harder to pinpoint. When it's hard to pinpoint the sound (and your brain tries to subconsciously), it becomes easier to believe that it's coming from the same place as all the visual cues you get from the movie. This tends to increase your ability to suspend your disbelief, making the experience seem more real.
Downfiring and porting out the back instead of the front also reduces your ability to hear cone wuffle and port whistle, which might make an identical sub sound better purely because of the placement of it in the box.
A properly arranged and configured set of surround sound speakers does the same by ensuring that sounds that should be coming from a particular direction actually come from that direction; again, it is increasing your ability to suspend your disbelief.
Keep in mind with all my advice that I never claim to be an expert, though. :)
Well, I decided to give Polk Audio one more try. I'm getting this (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10049575&catid=10554) 12" sub, which is $275 from the place my workplace deals with (Futureshop sells it for $399). I could have gotten a JBL 10" for the same price, but I figure any difference in build quality will be made up by the increase in power handling wattage. I'll let you know how it works when it shows up in a few days (they deliver to my office).
I would've gone for the JBL, m'self :P Just from experience with their car audio components...
$275's a good price, especially as you don't have to haggle over it. The stats look good, nice low frequency response and decent amplification. Don't know what the back looks like, but if you can face the front towards the wall behind the TV without having an ugly mess of wires/knobs sticking out, you might get the benefits of downward firing - at the very least, it'll sound like the bass is coming from the TV rather than from that speaker. But that's something to play with and see if you notice the difference :)
Both of those subwoofers are nearly identical except for one thing, the Polk is a 12", the JBL is 10".
The only thing I couldn't find was whether or not both (or neither) subwoofers had manual crossover settings.
Incedentally, to get slightly better sound out of either of these units a little trick is that you have the loudspeaker face the wall, this will dilute the sound somewhat and make the bass signal seem to be a bit more omni-directional.
But again, as Thorin said, I make no claims that I am a professional.
I agree that the specs were pretty close. The only differences were the size, and something called power handling, which is 260w on the polk versus a 150 watt. Does anybody know what power handling means? And the Polk has a three year warranty on the electronics, where the JBL only has a 1 year on the electroincs. Both have five on the speaker.
Quote from: "Thorin"Quote from: "Shayne"downfiring = better?
i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not. In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.
From car audio, I learned that facing the subwoofer cone away from the listener made the source of the sound harder to pinpoint. When it's hard to pinpoint the sound (and your brain tries to subconsciously), it becomes easier to believe that it's coming from the same place as all the visual cues you get from the movie. This tends to increase your ability to suspend your disbelief, making the experience seem more real.
This is OK to a point, but sometimes not so.
First car: Depending on your layout, changing the directory of the sub can not only change your source perception, but also the DBs, clearity, and sound varient. Huh? Well consider a vehicle is basically a tin-can sealed. It's shape determines your sound fields and variations on how the sound bounces around inside. Therefore this has been my experiences:
- In most hatchbacks, the best sound out of subs is facing them against the back seat pointing at the rear windshield, angled so they face directly at the window. Why? Well as the sound reverbs of the back windshield, it is the directed at the passenger's heads in the car.
- In most sedans, your best bet is to face the subs directly into the back seat, with a box designed to allow a tiny (maybe 1" at most) gap between the seat and the box, but at the same angle (if any) of the back seat. Why? Your trunk usually has 2 exits with sound into the cab: 1) the speaker ports above on the back deck or 2) the back seat material or slits (if your seats drop down). If the sound was directed in a way that it went through the deck, you wouldn't hear your rear fill speakers very well, and your sub sound fields would be cut appart by your rear fills. Plus the angle would pretty much have your sub sound cresting your back passenger's heads and bounce the the butts of your front seaters.
- In a truck, if your subs are in your cab, its best to point them down, because they are so close to the back of your head - unless you like that type of base. Because the cab is so small, the sound will fill the whole area. Usually have to run your subs lower in this environment.
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Second house: House is a lot lot lot harder to setup your speakers for. Reasons are: Your room is fairly large - reason the impedence is so much higher on house speakers, cause sound has to travel farther; You have structures usually obscuring the sound fields - couch, tables; Becuase of the last 2 you will find that as sound travels distances, it is more affected by structures. So as Thorin and Mr. A pointed out, a good trick - and general rule of thumb (and why subs are designed this way by default) - are to point the sub down and/or away from the seating area. But this isn't always the most ideal. If you have the ability to have more than 1 sub, such in my setup, you want to face the subs at each other, into the center of our sound fields. 4 works best, but have succeeded with this with 2. The result is that the sounds bouce off each other and cause a similar effect of the down/away. The only difference, is cause the sound is directed at your seating people, you get a feeling of theatre sound. Why? Cause you feel the base coming at you, vs feeling the base reverb off the floor/wall.
It is interesting to note, in the threatre, where is your sub speakers? Behind the screen, directed at the audience.
Hmm, it says on the spec that the new sub would be shielded. Assuming it didn't warp my entertainment units top shelf, would it be safe to pu the sub on top of the entertainment unit, over the TV?
Put your sub on the floor - it'll vibrate the hell out of anything you put it on, and will vibrate itself if it isn't on something sturdy and won't sound as good. That 10-12" cone will be moving around a LOT, and you want to try and keep as much of that energy as possible in the cone, and not the rest of the sub moving around. Shove it in a corner out of the way somewhere, subs are non-directional (hence they can be made down-firing).
The sub channel is supposed to be an omnidirecitonal sound "additive" ultimately indistinguishable from any other channel (other than all low-end sounds having more power all around).
4 subs, IMHO are overkill, even two subs is pushing it (I do find Mel's setup to be a bit bass heavy, no offence). Facing foreward firing subs opposite each other could have a cancelling effect or cause other serious distortion issues for other interacting speakers (notably rear surround channels).
The placement of theatre subwoofers behind the screen is more or less a necessity for two reasons: They are enormous. They use the space behind the screen as a resonance chambre. If you've ever seen behind the screen (I got a chance once at a tour of the Edmonton Space Science Centre IMAX theatre, which was upgraded to a more modern Dolby setup in the early-to-mid-90s) the main speakers are actually quite close to the screen whereas the sub is placed somewhat behind them and not even centred. Incedentally, there is a theatre store here in Edmonton where you can purchase an 18" (or larger) sub unit for a theatre (you can also buy the popcorn machines or even row seating :) ) if you ever wanted to see one up close.
Quote from: "Ustauk"Hmm, it says on the spec that the new sub would be shielded. Assuming it didn't warp my entertainment units top shelf, would it be safe to pu the sub on top of the entertainment unit, over the TV?
No way Jose, like Cova said you are going to get a lot of movement out of it if you put it on a smooth, non-flat surface.
In your apartment I would place it in the corner by the window, it will fill the room nicely there.
Quote from: "Mr. Analog"4 subs, IMHO are overkill, even two subs is pushing it (I do find Mel's setup to be a bit bass heavy, no offence). Facing foreward firing subs opposite each other could have a cancelling effect or cause other serious distortion issues for other interacting speakers (notably rear surround channels).
True, that is why when you setup like this, its nice to have a seperate audio device to reduce and variant your audio specifically to your subs. Yeah, I'll admit I like a little more base than some, but never do my subs over power my movies.
Q-sound is supposed to cause a similar effect on the omnidirectional stuff, but never found it really worked all that well. Whether the channel's source is omnidirectional doesn't really have that large effect.
Again I'm not trying to convince anyone to use this setup, just giving an alternate angle to the whole subject. I know this is way out of Ustauk's line of purchasing, even my own at the moment - just so happened that I had most of the pieces to make this work sitting around.
Alternately, I find the sub that Mr. Analog has, as well as some of my other friends not on these boards, to be insufficient to my thinking for the home theatre experience. I just think that in order to make it work, you have to buy a sub like you buy a centre channel - they should be the most expensive speakers you own, but that is just my opinion.
Quote from: "Ustauk"I agree that the specs were pretty close. The only differences were the size, and something called power handling, which is 260w on the polk versus a 150 watt. Does anybody know what power handling means? And the Polk has a three year warranty on the electronics, where the JBL only has a 1 year on the electroincs. Both have five on the speaker.
Power Handling as Futureshop is referring to it there is indicative of what kind of power the speaker can handle without being overdriven. As you can see from the stats they list, the amplifier and speaker are matched in power output and power handling. Go figure, it's almost like they planned it, eh? :)
By the way, I found more detailed specs on
www.polkaudio.com. Reading the customer reviews, there's a few people who complain about port noise. This is typical with front-firing front-ported designs. I assume it's not as noticeable with the grill on, or if you move it further away from where you sit (like in the corner as Cova and Mr. A. both suggested).
Subwoofer cones move lots, so you need to put them on the most solid flat surface you have. This is typically the floor, although if you have a concrete or brick entertainment unit that'd be fine, too.
Remember, its better to over power a sub with "clean power" then it is to under power it. Curtis was sending 1000W RMS to his 10" JLs...sure they moved a good couple inches when driving hard, but ran hard, and ran well.
Quote from: "Melbosa"Alternately, I find the sub that Mr. Analog has ... to be insufficient to my thinking for the home theatre experience.
Personally, I find it well balanced when I turn it up, which I usually do not as I live in a human hive. Alternativly, everyone has their own sense of "what sounds good", on my current setup I can hear sound effects, dialogue and musical subtleties with equal clarity.
Regardless of componentry, I reckon just about anything can sound good if configured with care.
:)
Quote from: "Shayne"Remember, its better to over power a sub with "clean power" then it is to under power it. Curtis was sending 1000W RMS to his 10" JLs...sure they moved a good couple inches when driving hard, but ran hard, and ran well.
Couple of notes there:
1. Underpowering is a myth. Sending only 10 watts to a speaker than can handle up to 1000 watts will not harm it. Humans who try to crank the gain on the amp and the volume on the receiver until the sound signal has audible distortion will destroy a sub, but then it's the distortion, not the low power, that destroys it.
2. 1000 watts RMS, from what make and model of amplifier to how many of what model of 10" JL Audio subs in what arrangement and what kind of enclosure? With a strong enough amplifier and a weak enough speaker, you can rip the cone of the speaker out of the basket. I've seen it done. Usually, right after the cone rips out the voice coil will touch the magnet and weld to it. At which point you have a blown speaker, although the root cause is physical failure.
It seems this simple request for subwoofer recommendations has turned into quite a thread :)
The amp power on the JBL was 250 watss, while the power handling was 150 watts. This was one of the few differences between it and the Polk. Because of the difference between amp power and power handling, would it have been easier to blow?
Quote from: "Ustauk"The amp power on the JBL was 250 watss, while the power handling was 150 watts. This was one of the few differences between it and the Polk. Because of the difference between amp power and power handling, would it have been easier to blow?
You're quoting these figures from the Futureshop website? They're notoriously inaccurate. Believe me when I say that even low-end JBL house subwoofers with built-in amplifiers have speakers and amplifiers that are matched to each other.
That said, there's RMS power (also called "continuous"), and peak power (also called "maximum" or, these days, "dynamic"). For both the Polk Audio and the JBL the wattage listed by Futureshop will be the peak power. I'm willing to bet that the RMS power for both is 100 watts. For the Polk Audio, you can see that on the
specifications page.
But I want to reiterate here:
- Futureshop stats are notoriously inaccurate
- Respected house subwoofer manufacturers choose the right speaker and amplifier and balance them to each other; it costs them nothing extra to do so, and not doing so can cause lots of bad press
Which makes me wonder about your previous Polk Audio sub not working anymore... You said there was a hum and if you wiggled a wire it went away; I suspect there was either some minor short in the amplifier circuitry or the audio signal cable was picking up a large amount of noise. The hum might have been low-volume distortion, and eventually distortion will cause a speaker to fail, usually by having the voice coil touch the magnet dipole and weld to it.
All right Thorin, you convinced me. I changed my order to the JBL 10", at $287 versus the $445 Future Shop price. It's not quite as good a price difference, but I really should try a different brand after the Polk died on me, and your recommendation convinced me. The JBL won't be coming in until next week, so I'll let you know then how it goes.
I found specs for the JBL E150P on www.jbl.com (http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=E150P&cat=NRE&ser=NRE). If that is the correct subwoofer, then you have switched to a non-ported sub, from what I can see, which would eliminate the possibility of port whistle (always a good thing).
Also, if you look at Polk Audio's ratings from their site (posted earlier) versus JBL's rating, the continuous power is only 100 watts into the 12" as opposed to 150 watts into the 10". Smaller cones produce less decibels (dB) of sound pressure level (SPL or dBSPL). Higher continuous power ratings increase production of dBSPL, so long as the speaker wasn't already at its limit.
The 2" loss of cone diameter will be offset by the 50% increase in wattage. If you were to listen to these two subs side by side in a store, or even with an SPL meter, you would probably see 1dB or less difference. 1dB is the minimum change in sound pressure level the human ear can determine.
So then it comes down to how they sound; ported subs are boomier at the frequency their port is tuned for, closed-box subs are flatter in overall response. Basically, ported subs are more specialized, closed-box subs are more generic. Me, I prefer closed-box subs but ended up getting a ported sub for home. Still sounds just fine.
I'm sure you'll be happy with your purchase, especially once you get the crossover cut-off frequency and the level adjusted just right - the manual explains how and why to do this.
When talking in terms of Cars, ported boxes cater more to the dance and trance (rumble more) vs the enclosed ones are better all around (punch more) and sound good with most music. I think the same can be said for the home stereo market.
I had the polk sub on a the coffee tablish piece of furniture with two cabinest built into it. I think I'll put the new one there, but I'll turn it to face the entertainment unit right next to it, and see how that works. I don't want to face it backwards since that would point it at my neighbours apartment, and even with him being hard of hearing, hi might notice the throbbing bass through the wall :) Does anyone want my old sub for dissection? It the speaker may be fried, as Thorin suggested, but it could be the electronics are what's fried. And I don't think there are any cracks in the cabinet. First come, first serve.
Don't you have concrete walls?
Quote from: "Mr. Analog"Don't you have concrete walls?
My bedroom wall is concrete. My living room/dining room wall sounds a bit hollow when I tap on it, so I think its not concrete, unless there is some space between the drywall and the concrete. My floor an ceiling are both concrete. Having watched a few concrete towers go up around downtown in the last few years, it seems common to have concrete outer walls, floor/ceilings, and support pillars, but the rest is metal framed drywall. So you still get some noise, even on the newer buildings.
Quote from: "Ustauk"I had the polk sub on a the coffee tablish piece of furniture with two cabinest built into it. I think I'll put the new one there, but I'll turn it to face the entertainment unit right next to it, and see how that works. I don't want to face it backwards since that would point it at my neighbours apartment
The best place for the sub is on the strongest, flattest, most inflexible surface. In houses this is typically the floor. If that piece of furniture really doesn't bend at all when you push on it with all your might, it *might* work. You might still hear a rattling noise and/or see your subwoofer moving (and thus eventually falling off the furniture) when you turn it up loud.
The suggestion to face it at the wall was to try and diffuse the sound to make it less directional, and thus make it seem more like it's part of the front soundstage. However, this would make a small difference, not a large difference. Then again, a bunch of small differences result in a large difference, usually :)
Quote from: "Thorin"Quote from: "Ustauk"I had the polk sub on a the coffee tablish piece of furniture with two cabinest built into it. I think I'll put the new one there, but I'll turn it to face the entertainment unit right next to it, and see how that works. I don't want to face it backwards since that would point it at my neighbours apartment
The best place for the sub is on the strongest, flattest, most inflexible surface. In houses this is typically the floor. If that piece of furniture really doesn't bend at all when you push on it with all your might, it *might* work. You might still hear a rattling noise and/or see your subwoofer moving (and thus eventually falling off the furniture) when you turn it up loud.
The suggestion to face it at the wall was to try and diffuse the sound to make it less directional, and thus make it seem more like it's part of the front soundstage. However, this would make a small difference, not a large difference. Then again, a bunch of small differences result in a large difference, usually :)
Its a fairly sold piece of furniture. I don't recall my old sub moving at all while on it. I may put it on the floor. Will the carpet dampen the bass any?
While possible to install drywall directly onto a cement or brick wall, you won't see it done very often - its not a good thing to do. I've only ever seen it done once (and I've seen a LOT of construction sites, as my dad used to do it for a living and I worked with him weekends/evenings as a student way back in the day), but you can spray an entire wall with glue and stick the drywall on. Normal construction would be to nail/screw studs to the cement, and screw the drywall to the studs normally - in a large commercial building the studs would be steel. Then there's the in-between way - when they don't want to make the wall 3" thicker, but don't want to glue drywall to cement - they'll use 1x1's or 2x2's attached to the cement as backing to screw the drywall too.
Anyways - as to whats separating you from your neighbors, I doubt it's just a stud-wall with drywall on both sides. I'm pretty sure fire regulations require some type of fireproofing between apartments. And the bigger the building, the more fire-proofing required (eg. those 4-storey apartments with no elevators are usually all-wood construction and burn down real easy, 5+ stories they aren't allowed to do that)
Quote from: "Cova"While possible to install drywall directly onto a cement or brick wall, you won't see it done very often - its not a good thing to do. I've only ever seen it done once (and I've seen a LOT of construction sites, as my dad used to do it for a living and I worked with him weekends/evenings as a student way back in the day), but you can spray an entire wall with glue and stick the drywall on. Normal construction would be to nail/screw studs to the cement, and screw the drywall to the studs normally - in a large commercial building the studs would be steel. Then there's the in-between way - when they don't want to make the wall 3" thicker, but don't want to glue drywall to cement - they'll use 1x1's or 2x2's attached to the cement as backing to screw the drywall too.
Anyways - as to whats separating you from your neighbors, I doubt it's just a stud-wall with drywall on both sides. I'm pretty sure fire regulations require some type of fireproofing between apartments. And the bigger the building, the more fire-proofing required (eg. those 4-storey apartments with no elevators are usually all-wood construction and burn down real easy, 5+ stories they aren't allowed to do that)
The building is 1969 vintage seventeen story highrise, but I'm not sure if the fire regulations were the same back then. Given the age of the building, the fire proofing could be asbestos insulation for all I know :(
FYI, from the Edmonton City Noise By-Law:
QuotePART 4 - NOISE LEVEL IN RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS
400. No person shall cause, or permit to be caused, noise of a level greater than 65 dBA in a residential district during the day unless the noise is of a temporary or intermittent nature and does not exceed the following limits:
dBA____Hours Per Day
70-----------2
75-----------1
80-----------0.30
85-----------0.25
The time indicated herein is the total elapsed time during
any one calendar day.
401. No person shall cause, or permit to be caused, noise of a level exceeding 50 dBA in a residential district at night.
That being said, noise by-laws are "fuzzy", i.e. if you are annoying someone with "noise" they can call the cops on you, this includes any noise for any duration, though it is at the discrecion of the officer to serve out justice. Loud music, an annoying car muffler, obnoxious relentless laughter, a dripping tap, anything could be considered.
Read more here (http://www.edmonton.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_263_209_0_43/http%3B/CMSServer/NR/rdonlyres/FF8D022D-53C1-4562-AD5D-F588975B964D/23894/C7255.doc).
OH yeah, just so you know roughly what decibel levels sound like:
0-Threshold of hearing
10-rustle of leaves, a quiet whisper
20-average whisper
20-50-quiet conversation
40-45-hotel, theater between performances
50-65-loud conversation
65-70-traffic on a busy street
65-90-train
75-80-factory noise( light/medium work)
90-heavy traffic
90-100-thunder
110-140-jet aircraft at takeoff
130-threshold of pain
140-190-space rocket on takeoff
(from Encarta 2005 apparently)
Quote from: "Ustauk"Its a fairly sold piece of furniture. I don't recall my old sub moving at all while on it. I may put it on the floor. Will the carpet dampen the bass any?
Not that you'll be able to tell. You might lose a tenth of a dB, but you'd only discover that with a high-quality SPL meter. Remember, our hearing cannot distinguish volume differences below 1 dB.
Quote from: "Mr. Analog"
That being said, noise by-laws are "fuzzy", i.e. if you are annoying someone with "noise" they can call the cops on you, this includes any noise for any duration, though it is at the discrecion of the officer to serve out justice. Loud music, an annoying car muffler, obnoxious relentless laughter, a dripping tap, anything could be considered.
Well in that case, my brother might call the cops on me if I don't get off my butt and ask our townhouse management to fix that damn kitchen sink! :lol:
Well, my sub came in yeasterday. Thanks for steering me towards the JBL, it seems to be working great. A 12" would have been overkill for my speakers and my condo. After fiddling for a bit, I listened to some Nickelback, Bif Naked, and Default while I baked cookies, and was quite please how it enhanced the music without overpowering it. I think it helps it takes LFE input, so the receiver can manage the frequency response. I'll probably try it with a movie tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.
I have a DTS sampler CD you can borrow to test your gear, if you want.
Quote from: "Mr. Analog"I have a DTS sampler CD you can borrow to test your gear, if you want.
That would be cool. I have a wmv for speaker positioning I run from the XBox, but an actually DTS sampling would be nice :)
Quote from: "Ustauk"I listened to some Nickelback, Bif Naked, and Default while I baked cookies
I think that that quote is a keeper :lol:
Quote from: "Lazybones"Quote from: "Ustauk"I listened to some Nickelback, Bif Naked, and Default while I baked cookies
I think that that quote is a keeper :lol:
I'm just glad I said I was bringing cookies and not cake; a cake would have fallen flat :)
Quote from: "Ustauk"Well, my sub came in yeasterday. Thanks for steering me towards the JBL, it seems to be working great. A 12" would have been overkill for my speakers and my condo. After fiddling for a bit, I listened to some Nickelback, Bif Naked, and Default while I baked cookies, and was quite please how it enhanced the music without overpowering it. I think it helps it takes LFE input, so the receiver can manage the frequency response. I'll probably try it with a movie tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.
Good to hear that it's sounding right. Those three bands all have fairly similar sounds - try some country, some classical, and some rap, to see if it makes all music sound good. That's when you'll know whether you'll truly be happy with it or not :)