http://www.tremulous.net/index.php?section=about
QuoteSummary
Tremulous is a free, open source game that blends a team based FPS with elements of an RTS. Players can choose from 2 unique races, aliens and humans. Players on both teams are able to build working structures in-game like an RTS. These structures provide many functions, the most important being spawning. The designated builders must ensure there are spawn structures or other players will not be able to rejoin the game after death. Other structures provide automated base defense (to some degree), healing functions and much more...
Player advancement is different depending on which team you are on. As a human, players are rewarded with credits for each alien kill. These credits may be used to purchase new weapons and upgrades from the "Armoury". The alien team advances quite differently. Upon killing a human foe, the alien is able to evolve into a new class. The more kills gained the more powerful the classes available.
The overall objective behind Tremulous is to eliminate the opposing team. This is achieved by not only killing the opposing players but also removing their ability to respawn by destroying their spawn structures.
Looks like the natural selection mod for Half life, but it is Free and GPLed.. Something I think we should check out.
Sounds Savage-like, I likey! I'll have to download it tonight!
Hmmm will have to check this out... GPL games are not always the best out there... but hey this part of the gaming market only has a few games to compete with, so more the better :D.
Oooo watching video... Aliens remind me of playing AvP back in the day.
Sounds like a good game for Frag :)
One thing I did notice is that I don't think it has a RTS view like Savage for the builder... which I really liked :(. I think you just have a construction unit you can be, and you build stuff inside the maps.
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:10:15 AMGPL games are not always the best out there...
Meaning what exactly? FreeCiv, Free Orion and MAME kick much ass. Or were you thinking OpenGL games aren't always good (which, considering how decrepit OpenGL is... well fun is fun sometimes)
Ha! We should dig up AVP and have a few rounds 8)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 31, 2006, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:10:15 AMGPL games are not always the best out there...
Meaning what exactly? FreeCiv, Free Orion and MAME kick much ass. Or were you thinking OpenGL games aren't always good (which, considering how decrepit OpenGL is... well fun is fun sometimes)
Just an observation from experience. Not shooting down the games that fall under GPL, just haven't played one yet that has been excellent. I do enjoy them, and who knows this may be one that is. Again just an observation, not a shot.
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:21:14 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 31, 2006, 11:16:33 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:10:15 AMGPL games are not always the best out there...
Meaning what exactly? FreeCiv, Free Orion and MAME kick much ass. Or were you thinking OpenGL games aren't always good (which, considering how decrepit OpenGL is... well fun is fun sometimes)
Just an observation from experience. Not shooting down the games that fall under GPL, just haven't played one yet that has been excellent. I do enjoy them, and who knows this may be one that is. Again just an observation, not a shot.
Well, I'm not sure what you were saying then because there are a lot of crappy non-GPL games too.
Here's a huge list of crappy games! Enjoy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_considered_the_worst_ever)
This is more like a mod or a total conversion for Quake 3, just happens that the Quake 3 engine is open source now so the complete game + mod is free.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 31, 2006, 11:27:51 AM
This is more like a mod or a total conversion for Quake 3, just happens that the Quake 3 engine is open source now so the complete game + mod is free.
That rocks!
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 31, 2006, 11:27:06 AM
Well, I'm not sure what you were saying then because there are a lot of crappy non-GPL games too.
Here's a huge list of crappy games! Enjoy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_considered_the_worst_ever)
Agreed. I apologize if my posts are antagonizing you this week Mr. Analog, as that is not my intent at all.
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:40:29 AM
Agreed. I apologize if my posts are antagonizing you this week Mr. Analog, as that is not my intent at all.
Oh, but its so much fun.
:)
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:40:29 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 31, 2006, 11:27:06 AM
Well, I'm not sure what you were saying then because there are a lot of crappy non-GPL games too.
Here's a huge list of crappy games! Enjoy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_considered_the_worst_ever)
Agreed. I apologize if my posts are antagonizing you this week Mr. Analog, as that is not my intent at all.
Well, I am a bit stressed because of stupid @%&# at work, but
"GPL games are not always the best out there" is a very broad statement. It's like saying
"Y'know a lot of Mazdas suck". You're gonig to hear some responses.
Unless you meant that OpenGL sucks (in which case I agree LOL).
Quote from: Cova on May 31, 2006, 11:42:12 AM
Quote from: Melbosa on May 31, 2006, 11:40:29 AM
Agreed. I apologize if my posts are antagonizing you this week Mr. Analog, as that is not my intent at all.
Oh, but its so much fun.
:)
Hehe :)
Quotewhich, considering how decrepit OpenGL is
QuoteUnless you meant that OpenGL sucks (in which case I agree LOL).
I dunno. I appreciate the flexibility and ease of use. Especially in OpenGL 2.0, with GLSL. Its quite nice.
I look at the DX API and just shudder. All that COM and LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACENN crap... eeeuuuhhhhh.
And if you hate GL just due to glVertex and the glBegin/glEnd interface, thats about the WORST way to use GL ;) You want VertexBufferObjects, VertexLists, etc.
I've already got an interesting indirect object interface where objects store all their positional and other data in a interface class, which can be implemented using VBO's, Vertex Lists, or even the horrible glBegin/glEnd interface.
Your "OpenGL sucks" is about the same as "Y'know a lot of Mazdas suck".
QuoteYour "OpenGL sucks" is about the same as "Y'know a lot of Mazdas suck".
Yes, I expected your response and I still stand by that statement. As a WinDork, running a gfx card designed with ActiveX in mind I find OpenGL far less performant. I also do not like the way most of the games I have played that use OpenGL look (Quake, HalfLife) compared to Direct3D (Unreal, Battlefield).
:)
I've read that OpenGL code can look just as ugly as Direct3D code, it's just more accessable to beginners.
Gfx cards are designed for DX?** who does that these days? Nvidia? I'm pretty sure they are devoted to GL as well.
Though the level of ugly is related to (API.ugly * Coder.style.ugly). Where GL.API.ugly == 2, and DX.API.ugly == 8. Even for a really skilled coder with the cleanest coding style, the UGLY api used is going to mess things up ;) You know unless they make an entire wrapper for the ugly api that doesnt look so bad, and you just ignore the code in the wrapper. :)
And your little GL games vs. DX games, that depends on the team, coders, and artists involved. You just don't like the Quake/HL style.
**) AFAIK even nvidia makes Hardware thats totally API agnostic and just codes whats needed into their drivers. (I know a dude who works for NV in the tech depts)
QuoteYes, I expected your response and I still stand by that statement.
So you think Mazda's suck too?
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 08:52:54 PM
Gfx cards are designed for DX?** who does that these days? Nvidia? I'm pretty sure they are devoted to GL as well.
I'm pretty sure nVidia cards ARE designed for DirectX first, and GL second - the vast majority of games are DirectX nowadays, though nVidia keeps pretty good GL support around for id games and linux support.
ATI on the other hand are almost purely DirectX. Everyone knows their GL drivers suck and are slow, and nVidia has been ahead in the benchmarks of GL-based games (read: id games) for ... forever really. ATI keeps GL support around so that people can't say "but your hardware can't play xxxx"
Designing hardware for a specific software api is a little silly. Now basing it on what the API needs, sure, that I can understand.
edit:
DX and GL 2.0 have SHOCKINGLY similar "needs".
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 09:18:26 PM
Designing hardware for a specific software api is a little silly. Now basing it on what the API needs, sure, that I can understand.
edit:
DX and GL 2.0 have SHOCKINGLY similar "needs".
I don't see any problem with designing hardware for a specific API, I think it happens fairly regularily. Graphics is a decent example - MS announces what features will be in the next DirectX, then ATI/nVidia announce they have hardware acceleration for it. DX10 will be pushing unified shaders, ATI did it already in the 360 chip and I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that their next PC chip will be unified as well.
On a more theoretical level - whenever you want to accelerate some software by hardware-accelerating part of it - you basically have an API (perhaps a very small one, a funtion or a few) and you design hardware that implements it. Designing chips for a certain specification (eg. MP3 decoding, DVD video playback, etc) is also basically designing hardware around a defined API - but instead of a function (or set of functions) its a defined input and output format.
To me, a GPU card is too complex to design it specifically with something like DX in mind. And the way NVidia and ATI deliver linux drivers, it appears as if my suspicions are correct. they have two parts, a direct source interface between the distributed binary module that actually talks to the hardware, and the kernel api.
With something like a GPU, you take the features you want, define a clear interface for accessing them, and then code for that interface. The fact that GL on windows hasn't ALWAYS been a wrapper around DX would also seem to say that the card exposes a interface which the drivers then use, and then the GFX API ontop of that uses the underlying drivers. Of course the underlying drivers can cater to a single higher level API, as happens with ATI and thier CRAPPY CRAPPY drivers. even thier windows drivers could be alot better. Back when A rage 128 pro was new ATI had the crappiest drivers I had ever seen.
QuoteDesigning chips for a certain specification (eg. MP3 decoding, DVD video playback, etc) is also basically designing hardware around a defined API - but instead of a function (or set of functions) its a defined input and output format.
Exactly, except its usually lower level than an API like DX will want. As for most MPEG2 decoder chips and MP3 decoders, they accept raw MPEG, and then give you back raw pcm. at least for the more complete mpeg chips. My mini-itx box has one that doesn't actually take raw MPEG streams, you have to give it the individual "frames" or "slices" for it to do its thing, which means you have to parse the MPEG stream first.
Wow, now I know what to bring up in D&D to get you all angry and stuff... J/K
I don't mean to rail against anyone here but for kripes sake if you think something as broad as GPL gaming sucks in general; Please bring up some reasons and don't get surprised if someone taps you for it.
If you think I'm an asshole for saying it, fine, I can handle that criticism.
Point is, in my earlier post I was trying to illustrate that if I say something that is going to be a divisive topic I should at least expect rebuttal and have some reasoning behind it. When I made my statement about OpenGL I thought it was obviously an intentional TROLL as a joke (too much caffiene for me today or something...). If you want to keep talking about it ('cause, I do think OpenGL has, much like Coach Z, "more than two problems") let's start a new thread instead of sending this one into further off-topic-ness.
And now I will take some time to smile and be happy, I hope you will too.
>:( :( :o :)
QuoteI thought it was obviously an intentional TROLL as a joke
MEEP. Ooops? I've been a little to argumentative :( I need some TV/Movies/Anime to watch...
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 09:43:29 PM
QuoteI thought it was obviously an intentional TROLL as a joke
MEEP. Ooops? I've been a little to argumentative :( I need some TV/Movies/Anime to watch...
I'm not any better, I think astro-trolling sorta gets installed permenantly after a while (too much Slashdot or something, I think).
Quoteastro-trolling
Its been a while, but I don't recall Astro Boy being a troll :o
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 09:54:19 PM
Quoteastro-trolling
Its been a while, but I don't recall Astro Boy being a troll :o
Oh he was totaly on the Futuropolis forums starting flame wars about power cells and how much better his OS was compared to Atlus...
;)
I'm speachless. :-X
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 10:01:21 PM
I'm speachless. :-X
(http://vger.homeip.net/images/astro_troll.jpg)
He made the children cry, so they built a new version...
Quote from: Tom on May 31, 2006, 09:39:41 PM
To me, a GPU card is too complex to design it specifically with something like DX in mind. And the way NVidia and ATI deliver linux drivers, it appears as if my suspicions are correct. they have two parts, a direct source interface between the distributed binary module that actually talks to the hardware, and the kernel api.
They both design linux drivers that way so they can keep the stuff that talks to their hardware (read: their IP) closed-source, while needing at least a little bit of open code so that the module can be compiled and loaded into whatever kernel might happen to be on some users linux box. Needing to split a tiny amount of the driver into open code to interface with the OS will not affect the hardware design at all.
QuoteWith something like a GPU, you take the features you want, define a clear interface for accessing them, and then code for that interface.
Oh..., you mean something like say an API, and then code the GPU hardware for it... Maybe we need to call it an OSPI instead of an API, as its the OS instead of an Application which is using the Programming Interface.
QuoteThe fact that GL on windows hasn't ALWAYS been a wrapper around DX would also seem to say that the card exposes a interface which the drivers then use, and then the GFX API ontop of that uses the underlying drivers. Of course the underlying drivers can cater to a single higher level API, as happens with ATI and thier CRAPPY CRAPPY drivers. even thier windows drivers could be alot better. Back when A rage 128 pro was new ATI had the crappiest drivers I had ever seen.
1. The quality of ATI drivers did suck back in the Rage days - nowadays ATI's windows directX drivers are superior to nVidia's, though nVidia is better for GL and linux
2. The quality of any brands drivers does not affect hardware design at all.
QuoteExactly, except its usually lower level than an API like DX will want. As for most MPEG2 decoder chips and MP3 decoders, they accept raw MPEG, and then give you back raw pcm. at least for the more complete mpeg chips. My mini-itx box has one that doesn't actually take raw MPEG streams, you have to give it the individual "frames" or "slices" for it to do its thing, which means you have to parse the MPEG stream first.
How about this for a related point of evidence. The GPU in the original XBox is basically an nVidia GeForce 3. The parts of the XDK (XBox SDK) that work with it are VERY similar to DirectX, however there's no driver layer or OS layer, and the API has changed slightly from regular DirectX to only support exactly the features implemented in the XBox. The fact that that old Geforce 3 can still put out competitive looking games (with a P3-700 and 64MB RAM as the rest of the system) is because that hardware is VERY close to the API that the games are calling, and all the layers in-between on a regular PC don't exist on the XBox. And thats an nVidia chip - ATI's chips are even closer to the DirectX API.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on May 31, 2006, 09:40:46 PM
Wow, now I know what to bring up in D&D to get you all angry and stuff... J/K
I don't mean to rail against anyone here but for kripes sake if you think something as broad as GPL gaming sucks in general; Please bring up some reasons and don't get surprised if someone taps you for it.
If you think I'm an asshole for saying it, fine, I can handle that criticism.
Point is, in my earlier post I was trying to illustrate that if I say something that is going to be a divisive topic I should at least expect rebuttal and have some reasoning behind it. When I made my statement about OpenGL I thought it was obviously an intentional TROLL as a joke (too much caffiene for me today or something...). If you want to keep talking about it ('cause, I do think OpenGL has, much like Coach Z, "more than two problems") let's start a new thread instead of sending this one into further off-topic-ness.
And now I will take some time to smile and be happy, I hope you will too.
>:( :( :o :)
Alright back on topic. GPL games have one disadvantage, which is usually evident in the final product (again in my observation and experience) and that is no-budget. Based on the simple fact that it is usually voluntary involvement, more than likely on one's free time, this usually pushes the development cycle longer than the commercial designs. As such once the game hits the market, it usually suffers from a Dikatana syndrom - Out-dated is some form. Whether it be engine, graphics, gameplay, etc, it lacks that polish. Or on the flip side, it is rushed to be out when it will be current to that out there from the commercial sector, and then suffers from un-polished, shorten story or buggy as hell. I also find that originality is somewhat lacking as well, as they are usually based of another commercial game, or the code behind those when they do come out, taking away that feeling of a pure game.
Nice part of GPL games is that they have the ability to grow and upgrade faster than commercial based on the simple fact it is GPL. This means that over time a GPL game can become something more than those of the commercial sector, allowing for a mutation effect to their benefit.
So there you go, there is my reasoning :D