Where do you fall?
(http://i.imgur.com/b6tmVmj.gif)
I fall in the holy trinity of Perl+C+C++
Sadly most of my @work work is OOPHP+AJAX.
Does Manager Trump all in the FEELING superior department?
Quote from: Lazybones on March 26, 2014, 12:08:06 PM
Does Manager trump all in the FEELING superior department?
Why, do you know a manager who is wondering?
;)
But seriously if you did more "managing" then you might have less stress-induced hair loss..
Quote from: Darren Dirt on March 26, 2014, 12:49:12 PM
But seriously if you did more "managing" then you might have less stress-induced hair loss..
Everyone's bucket is over flowing, including my own. You can't delegate into a full queue.
Quote from: Lazybones on March 26, 2014, 12:51:11 PM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on March 26, 2014, 12:49:12 PM
But seriously if you did more "managing" then you might have less stress-induced hair loss..
Everyone's bucket is over flowing, including my own. You can't delegate into a full queue.
When the buckets are overflowing, your choices are:
1. Get more buckets (more people)
2. Slower pouring (agree to less tasks at a time)
3. Let it slop on the ground (watch your team fail on at least some of their tasks)
Quote from: Thorin on March 26, 2014, 01:14:45 PM
When the buckets are overflowing, your choices are:
1. Get more buckets (more people)
New hire idustrial size buckets are sold out
Contractors can be purchased at the dollar store but occasionally leak and your existing buckets over flow while your out getting them
Quote from: Thorin on March 26, 2014, 01:14:45 PM
2. Slower pouring (agree to less tasks at a time)
Trying to stop the leaks at the source is always the best idea, still have to bail out the water that got past already.
Quote from: Thorin on March 26, 2014, 01:14:45 PM
3. Let it slop on the ground (watch your team fail on at least some of their tasks)
Failure hurts moral especially when everyone is working vary hard. Already focused on moving the essentials to high ground, and opening a drain called (later / next year).
Another way to look at it is that, it has stopped raining, but it is going to take a long time to clean up the mess.
I just realized this qualifies as a "leaky abstraction" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_abstraction).
Oh you so funnah guyz.
THREAT LEVEL C++
I feel that C# and Java are rough equivalents though, kissin' cousins if you will (you can wreak equal amounts of terror with either, one was borne from sexy legal actions), whoever made this hierarchy is a big dumb dummy
(http://i.imgur.com/yurF7x0.jpg)
...actually looking at it I can tell what kind of "programmer" made this (hint: Ajax and JavaScript are two separate "languages"), I bet they have a "cabbie" hat in their closet and at least once wore a scarf when it was warm outside (for fashion reasons)
:D
Quote from: Tom on March 26, 2014, 02:56:40 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on March 26, 2014, 02:53:54 PM
THREAT LEVEL C++
LOL!
My love of C++ is somewhat complex, sometimes I want to manage memory, but most of the time not
It's like working with an ORM when you know the underlying database syntax, you know every statement could be done faster and/or more efficiently but you need to let an optimiser sitting on top of another optimiser compiled into another compiled language do it for you *shudder*
Yeah, I don't mind manual memory management. You should see the crazy @%&# (https://github.com/Tomasu/LuaGlue/blob/master/include/LuaGlue/LuaGlueApplyTuple.h#L443) I did for my latest OSS project.
C++11 is kinda fun.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on March 26, 2014, 03:05:15 PM
It's like working with an ORM when you know the underlying database syntax, you know every statement could be done faster and/or more efficiently but you need to let an optimiser sitting on top of another optimiser compiled into another compiled language do it for you *shudder*
HOLY @%&# that just described perfectly the pain that I'm suffering at present. The makers of the ORM I'm working with (Microsoft and Entity Framework) bragged last year about how they've optimized the ORM so it's only 11.5x slower than direct queries, instead of the previous 13.5x! Like, really? An entire order of magnitude difference? Well, that should be fine except for all the queries that now take 10 seconds instead of 1 second are timing out.
Most ORMs are pretty dumb, and encourage people to make dumb code :( I've found that with the sites at work. people will make the silliest controllers where they fetch the ids that they want, then individually fetch the items, and then individually fetch linked table data.
I think I took one page from 1s or so down to instant. All it took was a direct DB call with a few joins. Many ORMs have an issue that they really don't like to allow you to specify complex relationships like that and fetch all that data at once, it'll only get it "as needed" which in some cases is ALL THE TIME. The ORM I'm having to use right now is pretty braindead (on purpose it seems, they don't want to encourage the braindead querying I mentioned). It just CAN'T specify relations. So if you want to write controllers that aren't horribly slow, you have to write sql.
I disagree its more about using the right tool for the right job
You can use a screwdriver as a hammer but it doesn't mean you should
Knowing something's weakness means you learn its strengths, unfortunately most people don't bother to learn or even think about where some technologies are weak/ strong and end up coding around problems in weird ways
That's just it though, most ORMs seem to be the wrong tool for a job that needs to be reasonably performant. At least for most average PHP devs :(
It's just not a choice for us at this job, we use the specified ORM, or sql. I could argue we switch to something that allows to map relations and such, but I don't think they are interested.
An ORM isn't supposed to be performant or even easy for developmental use, it has a single function: abstraction of the database
That's all it does, all it should ever do. If your project doesn't need to be compatible with different databases there is NO REASON to use an ORM. Period.
That's why I say, right tool, right job. If you aren't planning on supporting multiple DBs there's no point in using an ORM.
I don't think that's the whole story. But you're entitled to your own opinion.
I have a real-world, concrete example of the Entity Framework failing that basic requirement - have to create two different models for Sql Server vs Oracle due to datatype differences between the two database engines.
Quote from: Tom on March 26, 2014, 04:55:37 PM
I don't think that's the whole story. But you're entitled to your own opinion.
I see people trying to use it as a "code first" approach and I also see those people stuck with some DB specific thing asking dumb questions on StackOverflow
Quote from: Thorin on March 26, 2014, 05:46:00 PM
I have a real-world, concrete example of the Entity Framework failing that basic requirement - have to create two different models for Sql Server vs Oracle due to datatype differences between the two database engines.
What a Microsoft product not playing well with non-Microsoft products? (particularly Oracle) I'm shocked!!
:D
Yeah, "code first" is a great idea if there isn't an existing database (most likely DB2 running on an AS/400) that you have to get your data from...
Quote from: Thorin on March 26, 2014, 08:37:00 PM
Yeah, "code first" is a great idea if there isn't an existing database (most likely DB2 running on an AS/400) that you have to get your data from...
Hahah, exactlyyyy. I mean it takes so much refactorin' to get your database in a shape that works better for EF (I ended up creating optimized views for some stuff that had tons of joins/unions/etc) or try to push out heavy processes that would bork the DB if you ever let EF try to wrangle the SQL into detached Entities so you can manipulate them in memory without destroying the universe as we know it...