QuoteThe Obama administration has rejected TransCanada's application to build the Keystone XL pipeline, capping a seven-year saga that became an environmental flashpoint in both Canada and the U.S.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/keystone-xl-pipeline-obama-1.3307440
:shrug: buy stock in CN/CP I guess :)
The side effect will be that we try to upgrade / refine more of the oil locally, creating jobs and reducing refining costs, but then have a higher cost of transport to market, reducing profit on the refined products.
Or like you implied, that it'll just get shipped in its heavy form via rail to the refineries down south.
The other thing to consider is with the threat of a pipeline gone the fracking industry will begin to really tool up.
Best case scenario we start shipping fuel to BRICS nations where they then sell to the US, so more circuitous way of doing the exact same business.
Interestingly enough as of today China has become the largest trade partner with the US moving Canada to No. 2 position:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-us-trade-1.3307544
If there wasn't a recession happening before there will be one now
The thing is, there are already a large amount of pipelines across North America.
Here's an overview of mixed / oil only / natural gas only large pipelines:
(http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_pipelines_map.jpg)
Here's a detailed view of natural gas only pipelines of (obviously) many sizes:
(http://cdn2.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/a33eed35-8a44-4da7-84c4-16f3751fe303/73afb49a-d452-45e2-9133-17abb35069de/Image243fa6becb4737866ce55098022985e9/rs-final-mayer-brown-inter-and-intrastate-pipe-map-with-source.jpg)
It's hard to get a good grasp on whether another pipeline is needed, or whether this was just a private company hoping to control their own pipe so they don't have to pay others for shipping.
There was a good story about the owner of the other competing crude pipeline system that runs down the west coast and how was he was supposedly heavily involved with the environmental side of the argument against expanding the XL pipeline (thereby horning in on his business which also wanted to extend to Texas I believe)
I wish I could find it, it was a classic Colbert / Daily Show "wuh oh" moment
Yeah, there are A LOT of competing interests here, most of them have to do with money rather than the environment.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 06, 2015, 01:50:46 PM
The other thing to consider is with the threat of a pipeline gone the fracking industry will begin to really tool up.
Best case scenario we start shipping fuel to BRICS nations where they then sell to the US, so more circuitous way of doing the exact same business.
Interestingly enough as of today China has become the largest trade partner with the US moving Canada to No. 2 position:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-us-trade-1.3307544
If there wasn't a recession happening before there will be one now
...come ON, politicos! We now have "progressed" into having a "supporting the middle class" as both NATIONAL leader as well as the leader of the province with most economically-beneficial resources that the rest of the Nation depends on. How could they let this happen on their watch?
aka do not they not realize the fast-fading "middle" class will be the main recipient of the economic negatives of crap like this. Not like they can tell another nation's leader what to do. (That's Uhmerica's jorb.)
Are you going stupid, Darren? Are you suggesting that since Trudeau was sworn in on Wednesday, he should've been able to stop Canada from falling behind China as the number one trading partner with the US by Friday morning?
Also, please define "middle" class. That's a term that is so vague as to mean absolutely nothing anymore. I tried googling for answers, none of them match each other.
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
That's how I took it too :?
Anyway, you can bet your butt that it will go to the court of appeals
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
Yeah, re-reading it, obviously he was being sarcastic.
Sorry Darren. I was pissed off at something at home and went off for no good reason.
Gotta remember not to post when angry at someone else.
Quote from: Thorin on November 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
Yeah, re-reading it, obviously he was being sarcastic.
Sorry Darren. I was pissed off at something at home and went off for no good reason.
Gotta remember not to post when angry at someone else.
Wanna rum it up this weekend? :D feel free to come chill. Got games 'n music 'n movies.
Quote from: Thorin on November 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Gotta remember not to post when angry at someone else.
Right now I'm grumpy AF and I'm SURE I'm gonna lose some followers for it but gosh darn it I need to vent a bit
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 07:17:20 PM
Wanna rum it up this weekend?
The Thornado is heading out to some sporting events I think?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 06, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: Thorin on November 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Gotta remember not to post when angry at someone else.
Right now I'm grumpy AF and I'm SURE I'm gonna lose some followers for it but gosh darn it I need to vent a bit
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 07:17:20 PM
Wanna rum it up this weekend?
The Thornado is heading out to some sporting events I think?
Ah well, if he has time, offer is open long term :)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 06, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: Thorin on November 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Gotta remember not to post when angry at someone else.
Right now I'm grumpy AF and I'm SURE I'm gonna lose some followers for it but gosh darn it I need to vent a bit
Yeah, you didn't seem your usual cheery self on the forums today. Maybe it's the weather, I dunno. People in my house are grumpy-pants, too.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 06, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 07:17:20 PM
Wanna rum it up this weekend?
The Thornado is heading out to some sporting events I think?
Okay, I have a little cousin through marriage who is named Toryn, his nickname was Torynado right from when he was little, so I don't call myself that.
And yes, I have to go ride a bus tomorrow for sports, and then more on Sunday morning <sigh>
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
yup and I'm also hoping so was Thorin's post ;)
...I think there needs to be a new Canadian equivalent of "X Y Z, *thanks Obama*" meme...
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
yup and I'm also hoping so was Thorin's post ;)
...I think there needs to be a new Canadian equivalent of "X Y Z, *thanks Obama*" meme...
Well for a while any time anything went wrong people would shake an angry fist at the Harper Government
TM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
yup and I'm also hoping so was Thorin's post ;)
...I think there needs to be a new Canadian equivalent of "X Y Z, *thanks Obama*" meme...
Well for a while any time anything went wrong people would shake an angry fist at the Harper GovernmentTM
Except it was generally either directly his fault, or indirectly through inaction. It doesn't quite apply. (I thought about saying it, lol)
btw...
Quote from: Thorin on November 06, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Sorry Darren. I was pissed off at something at home and went off for no good reason.
...Chillax my friend; based on what you have shared lately, "pissed off at something or someone at home" will be my default assumption for you when it comes to any negative-vibed conversational contributions -- for the next few months at least ;) The cliche of Deep Breaths can actually help, but especially changing the sitch by standing your ground when crap is unsustainable and you know that the problem ain't you, it's the other person(s) got some growing up they gotta do. Ain't easy tho, getting yelled at by entitlement-addicted people you care about.
Wow, unlike a lot of them, the meme page for this one = quite a lot of funny examples!
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thanks-obama
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 06, 2015, 05:56:35 PM
I'm pretty sure thats sarcasm from Darren.
yup and I'm also hoping so was Thorin's post ;)
...I think there needs to be a new Canadian equivalent of "X Y Z, *thanks Obama*" meme...
Well for a while any time anything went wrong people would shake an angry fist at the Harper GovernmentTM
Except it was generally either directly his fault, or indirectly through inaction. It doesn't quite apply. (I thought about saying it, lol)
Yeah totally; rainy day? Harper. Stub your toe? Harper.
It was like when George W Bush was in charge of the US and he became a byword for anybody who didn't like something
the government was doing, regardless if it was actually done by the Senate or Judicial branches, putting the blame on a single person is somehow WAY easier for people to comprehend than actually exploring the highly complex sociopolitical issues actually at play, it also seems far easier for people to make some extraordinary leaps of logic in order to continue to support that narrow view.
This is exactly why the joke of "thanks Obama" works so well, it subverted the attitude that the "fault" of any given decision was on one person
Then again we can thank Pierre Trudeau for consolidating power in the PMs office, there aren't as many checks and balances thanks to those changes (previously the PMO would be offset by the cabinet and Parliament itself, not anymore! WHOOPS!!)
:D
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 11:31:47 AM
Wow, unlike a lot of them, the meme page for this one = quite a lot of funny examples!
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thanks-obama
LOL
I would joke about harper more, but he consolidated power even further, and ran things with an iron fist. He didn't like someone, he drove them out. didn't like something? made sure it was run into the ground. thought something was unimportant? ignored it completely.
Thanks Obama!
If he was a regular old canadian politician, I wouldn't hate him nearly so much. however he had a serious agenda he wanted to see through back from his Reform days, and it was NOT a good thing for Canada. It was your typical US style politics and far right fiscal management (Corporate welfare, the poor and minorities are lazy useless bums, and kind of public service should be spun off no matter how important it is, etc).
I don't blame him for stubbing my toe. Just subverting Canadian values and its way of life.
Thanks Obama :)
*sigh* glad you're interested in serious discourse. I suppose you agree with his policies and the direction he took canada.
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:45:04 AM
I would joke about harper more, but he consolidated power even further, and ran things with an iron fist. He didn't like someone, he drove them out. didn't like something? made sure it was run into the ground. thought something was unimportant? ignored it completely.
Sounds like a graduate from the Steve Jobs School Of Business Management.
Oh wait, this wasn't a business he was running :(
You missed the point I was trying to make about generalized anger being focused on an individual (which is laughable and why the "Thanks Obama" meme exists at all)
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
*sigh* glad you're interested in serious discourse. I suppose you agree with his policies and the direction he took canada.
I believe this fallacy is called "a false exclusionary disjunct"
Because I'm having a bit of fun today I obviously agree with policies and direction the previous PMO. Hahaha. No.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
You missed the point I was trying to make about generalized anger being focused on an individual (which is laughable and why the "Thanks Obama" meme exists at all)
I missed nothing. I don't think it applies to most comments for harper. he actually IS responsible for a lot of the state our country has found itself in.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
*sigh* glad you're interested in serious discourse. I suppose you agree with his policies and the direction he took canada.
I believe this fallacy is called "a false exclusionary disjunct"
Because I'm having a bit of fun today I obviously agree with policies and direction the previous PMO. Hahaha. No.
I just feel like people aren't actually reading what I'm typing. skimming, or stopping after a sentence? Generally I don't type things that are entirely pointless in more serious discussions. Been feeling this a while now.
Here's how I think the switch from Harper to Trudeau will affect our little community:
Darren, Melbosa, Mr. Analog: end up paying a little less in taxes (twenty bucks per paycheque, maybe?)
Thorin: about even in taxes
Lazybones: a little less in taxes (mostly by getting more child benefits)
Tom: much better support when not working
all: more responsive healthcare, better infrastructure, same level of federal debt, less advanced military
Be wary of companies that claim an increase in the corporate tax rate suddenly cause them to suddenly post losses of hundreds of millions of dollars. Corporations only get taxed on profits (revenue minus expenses, although there's a lot of arguing about what expenses can be included). So if they made no profits, they'd pay no tax. The reason we're seeing some companies post big losses and blame it on taxes is because there's some strange loopholes that lets them carry forward tax liabilities and claim them at a later date, and that's what they're doing now.
---
Tom, I read everyone's posts. Sometimes I take the wrong message and get mad, or miss the sarcasm because it's not obvious to me, or whatever, but I do read it all. I think everyone does. Mr. A's just in as good of a good mood today as he was in as bad of a bad mood on Friday. I blame sun spots.
Quote from: Thorin on November 09, 2015, 12:36:20 PM
Here's how I think the switch from Harper to Trudeau will affect our little community:
Darren, Melbosa, Mr. Analog: end up paying a little less in taxes (twenty bucks per paycheque, maybe?)
Thorin: about even in taxes
Lazybones: a little less in taxes (mostly by getting more child benefits)
Tom: much better support when not working
all: more responsive healthcare, better infrastructure, same level of federal debt, less advanced military
Be wary of companies that claim an increase in the corporate tax rate suddenly cause them to suddenly post losses of hundreds of millions of dollars. Corporations only get taxed on profits (revenue minus expenses, although there's a lot of arguing about what expenses can be included). So if they made no profits, they'd pay no tax. The reason we're seeing some companies post big losses and blame it on taxes is because there's some strange loopholes that lets them carry forward tax liabilities and claim them at a later date, and that's what they're doing now.
---
Tom, I read everyone's posts. Sometimes I take the wrong message and get mad, or miss the sarcasm because it's not obvious to me, or whatever, but I do read it all. I think everyone does. Mr. A's just in as good of a good mood today as he was in as bad of a bad mood on Friday. I blame sun spots.
It happens for me a lot that people will say things that directly contradict with what i said, or say the exact same thing as if I didn't just say it. It's a little frustrating.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
You missed the point I was trying to make about generalized anger being focused on an individual (which is laughable and why the "Thanks Obama" meme exists at all)
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 11:50:55 AM
*sigh* glad you're interested in serious discourse. I suppose you agree with his policies and the direction he took canada.
I believe this fallacy is called "a false exclusionary disjunct"
Because I'm having a bit of fun today I obviously agree with policies and direction the previous PMO. Hahaha. No.
So you mean "silence implies consent/agreement/approval" ain't true?
Dang, I thought it was -- and therefore #NONBlackLiveDONTmatter ;)
As much as you say you understand what I'm trying to say, which by the way has nothing to do with any given individual or political lean, I don't think you understand what I'm getting at which is simply this:
Directing blame for generalities or sufficiently complex issues on an individual is wrong, to the point of ludicrousness exemplified by the "thanks Obama" meme
At no point did I bring up ANY political point today, I made an observation based off what I've seen most Canadians posting on social media for months (to the point of utter nonsense), then you kind of ran with it in another direction, one I didn't expect at all.
Do I agree 100% with any party? No, that's impossible
Do I disagree 100% with any party? Equally no
Now, take a step back and go watch a video about a guy riding a buffalo -> https://youtu.be/iJ4T9CQA0UM
:D it's ALL GOOD
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
So you mean "silence implies consent/agreement/approval" ain't true?
It doesn't have to be silence, if I say I like Strawberry it doesn't mean I hate Vanilla, a lot of fallacious arguments try and use that but obviously it's nonsense.
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
You missed the point I was trying to make about generalized anger being focused on an individual (which is laughable and why the "Thanks Obama" meme exists at all)
I missed nothing. I don't think it applies to most comments for harper. he actually IS responsible for a lot of the state our country has found itself in.
This thread, a strong need for levity, there is.
http://wikiality.wikia.com/wiki/Stephen_Harper
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on November 09, 2015, 12:08:50 PM
You missed the point I was trying to make about generalized anger being focused on an individual (which is laughable and why the "Thanks Obama" meme exists at all)
I missed nothing. I don't think it applies to most comments for harper. he actually IS responsible for a lot of the state our country has found itself in.
This thread, a strong need for levity, there is.
http://wikiality.wikia.com/wiki/Stephen_Harper
LOL Bush Kisser, true in so many ways (also where's the eye-bleach?)
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 12:45:08 PM
It happens for me a lot that people will say things that directly contradict with what i said, or say the exact same thing as if I didn't just say it. It's a little frustrating.
btw on this point I agree in part to what you are saying.
But keep in mind we are all very fast-thinking stream of consciousness dudes with hints of AD[H]D or Autism Spectrum etc and likely handling a dozen or more challenges from work or family or life in general at the same time as skim-reading posts on multiple forums throughout the busy day, so it's virtually never personal when we miss the point one of us makes (really, usually I make -- a more frequent occurrence than anyone else imho, but that's just because I brain-dump heavier and more frequently. I should probably ingest more mental fibre.) -- I would only be worried if these methods of trolling (http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/) became common-place in our discussions. e.g. Apologies that are insincere? I can count on one hand the # of times that has happened on this forum in a decade.
Feh. Just felt like my entire post and point was passed over because you thought i didn't get what you were saying, more than once. I even acknowledged in my original message that I got it, but I don't think it fully applies in this case.
I know what you're saying, and yes some people take things to extremes. ie: BLAME CANADA. but... feh.
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 02:28:00 PM
Just felt like my entire post and point was passed over because you thought i didn't get what you were saying, more than once.
Well I really don't understand what you want to talk about, maybe that's a topic for a new thread?
If it seems like I'm dodging a conversation about how we
feel about the former PM it's because I am :) I have no feelings either way about the man himself
How I /feel/ about someone is a direct result of their actions. I don't hate easily.
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 04:11:50 PM
How I /feel/ about someone is a direct result of their actions. I don't hate easily.
Agreed, I only hate people who hate without good reason. ("good" means I understand logically their reason, even if I do not personally agree. (which seems to be the opposite of most media pundits amirite) )
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 05:10:01 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 09, 2015, 04:11:50 PM
How I /feel/ about someone is a direct result of their actions. I don't hate easily.
Agreed, I only hate people who hate without good reason. ("good" means I understand logically their reason, even if I do not personally agree. (which seems to be the opposite of most media pundits amirite) )
By not easy I mean I can count on one hand the number of people I felt I've truly hated in my life.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on November 09, 2015, 01:49:45 PM
This thread, a strong need for levity, there is.
http://wikiality.wikia.com/wiki/Stephen_Harper
This led to the Hockey entry: http://wikiality.wikia.com/wiki/Hockey
and to what Canadians really care about: (http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/2/26/Canadauprising.jpg)
and then this fascinating gif of the ever-changing borders of Canada: (http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/7/72/Canada_provinces_evolution.gif)
...
So I guess what I'm saying is thanks for a thirty minute detour through life?
Quote from: Thorin on November 09, 2015, 07:47:12 PM
So I guess what I'm saying is thanks for a thirty minute detour through life?
Our Glorious Thruthiness Leader (http://wikiality.wikia.com/wiki/Stephen_Colbert) runs across the stage and high fives you an energetic You're Welcome!