Javascript + XML + no page reloads = AJAX:
QuoteAJAX is a simple technology that all the major browsers already support. As you will see shortly, the only prerequisite for AJAX implementation is knowledge of JavaScript.
How AJAX Works
If you've used the Gmail Web client or Google Maps you probably noticed that you can scroll over the map or spell check the typed text, respectively, without page submits. AJAX, the technology behind this behavior, handles the requested operations in _JavaScript and asynchronously invokes the server-side operations that provide the desired results.
Sounds intriguing...
http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/28456"Microsoft to Add AJAX Capabilities to ASP.NET":
http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/28530...or maybe to get the same effect, just use a Flash + XML framework, "OpenLaszlo":
http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/28641QuoteOpenLaszlo leverages Macromedia's virtual machine for runtime execution of its scripts; applications developed in OpenLaszlo run as Flash applications, natively within the Macromedia Flash Player. This is in contrast to AJAX-based applications such as Google's Gmail Web client or Google Maps, which use JavaScript to asynchronously invoke the server in order to perform dynamic zooms and scrolls, spellchecking, and other server-side operations.
Oh if only I had the time to learn such things :huh:
We are already using this technology in my office.
AJAX isnt a technology though. Its just javascript :P
I seem to remember my first encounter with this technology by making a small chat program for our app over a year and a half ago using JavaScript, XmlHTTP, and DHTML.
It's funny how this industry can wrap a new buzz word around old technology and create a total frenzy out of it. So i guess i already have 2 years experience with it!
But really though, buzz word or not it is a nicer UI experience for the user then the classic postback style. Ajax plays a major part in the next version of our application.
It's obvious to you and I thedruid because we were pioneers in this area (not to many people were combining XMLHTTP with Script and XML the way we were two years ago). This is someone taking all those concepts and harmonizing them and trying to wrap them up in a standard.
One of the very first things I did with ASP.NET was call an ASP page that sent / recieved XML via XMLHTTP, it was mostly thanks to the O'Reilly book on JavaScript that opened my eyes to the possibilities of XMLHTTP. I wrote a very basic version of the chat that you eventually wrote thedruid, I even had a crude way of being able to share a single text window between them with a "token" which would allow only one person involved in the chat to edit the text at a time.
I had that project in a zip file on the F drive way back when under my folder there, I wonder if any of that crap is still around? (If it is it was coded under the Beta framework, since the 1.0 hadn't been released yet).
Incedentally, the thing I like the most about XMLHTTP is that it offers a nice little way to have multiple things load dynamically without having to visibly POST/GET all the time :)
Its got some great potential, however ive seen people comparing it to flash, in how it handles forms, the code behind a massively AJAX incorporated project could be rather messy.
We have found it useful in "options". For example, a user wants to moderate comments on his blog, so he checks that box; the check was actually a seamless post and a database update.
Which leads me back to an issue we've already had. A user likes to "Save" things. So we actually created more confusion by removing the save button, and having it auto update. While i suppose you could keep the save button, and then ajax the whole form, but why both with the massive javascript required when a simple post saves the day.
I played a chess game all in ajax. sorta funky with no refresh, though i noticed IE sorta bogs down on it. if you do things really fast you can have the browser lose itself.
You guys might want to google around for Ruby on Rails if you're into this type of thing - seems to be the new fad among web developers. It's basically an AJAX framework. A lot of the Fragapalooza internal web-site was written with it.
So in summary it seems like a few have heard of it by name, and a few more have essentially done what it entails -- perhaps without realizing it was being recognized on a growingly large scale as potentially very useful...
Any suggestion on websites that have some really good (read "heavily commented") source code that illustrates the most common functionality that is used in pretty much any implementation?
Imagine you have an object in some server side language, now think about taking all the method handles, properties, their values and listing them out in a big delimited string. Now imagine using Javascript to create an array based off of that list. You end up with a pseudo-object with loaded properties and method handles. Now imagine that you've written some other utility routines that could take a method handle and call it via a web service (over XMLHTTP), you deconstruct the object like you did before and send it back to the server as pure data with an extra command that executes the method call on the server.
In a nutshell all AJAX is is a way to serialize and de-serialize simple objects out to the client and back to the server, it is an implementation of the MVC design pattern where the View and Controller are mostly client side. It has a lot of advantages but they have to be implemented by the programmer it's just a framework that mitigates data going from a to b.
For Example:
I have a PST field that appears on a bunch of pages, I have coded a simple PST object that has the following structure:
//Properties
PROV Province
//Methods
double getPST(double amount)
Wouldn't it be handy to be able to call this object from script instead of posting back the whole page?
In JavaScript you'd make a call like...
provTax.Province = PROV.ALTA;
provTax.getPST(this.forms[0].txtAmt.value);
The handler for all methods would serialize the object(s) send them to a web service via XMLHTTP with the instructino to execute the getPST method of the provTax object (type) and return the results.
This would all happen without an apparent postback. There is also a way to do asynchronous calls, so that you could pull live data while the user sits on a page.
Again, this implementation is farily obvious to those of us who realized that certain design patterns, XMLHTTP, SOAP and Web Services mesh together in ways that are very useful. AJAX is trying to make a unified way of how you handle all the serialization stuff and service calls.
http://www.modernmethod.com/sajax/ <- AJAX for dummies. The framework isnt bad, but i would use it as a guide, and implement your own universal solution so at least you know how the technology works. Then again, i dont know how a CPU works, just that it does.
SOAP isnt all that great of a technology. Its basically a massively heavy upgrade to the excellent XML-RPC. I have found no use for the extra header information, etc. Perhaps its slow adoptation and shotty implementation are to blame.
AJAX has better response in IE7. Seems a few update bugs i was having are solved now. Dunno if its my imagination (i think its still running IE6.1 renderer), but a few odd "data getting lost" issues are gone.
Funny, relatively new topic of study for me, not even looking for this kinda stuff (I honestly want to spend *less* time in front of the Box Of Blinking Lights) but on the weekend I was reading up on "
REST", including some interesting stuff on
http://wellformedweb.org, especially explaining the differences/benefits over "RDF". So clearly I wasn't relaxing during my time off. My vacation was not nearly "rest"ful as it should have been, oops unintentional pun. Ah well I partially blame the kids for that ;)
Interesting though I'm not so sure I want to spend the time getting all expert or such. But perhaps the "AJAX for dummies" link, "just having a quick look at it won't hurt"... (famous last words of an OCD control freak)
Ok Mr. A you can now go ahead and say it: "One of us, one of us..."
Thar be those who gaze into AJAX and see madness, then thar be the rest o' us who know it already...
I love how bad grammar can mean many things, don't you?
I had an idea today, that I might want to see how easy it is to have a basic glance understanding of how GMail generates the pages.
I noticed the main page "view source" is useless, so I figure check out the frameset, yup, 2 frames, frames[0].name="main" and [1].name="js".
- is useless.
But [1] is the magic. And yikes, even *I* give up before even starting. :P
Check it out yourself, from within your GMail account, have a glance, type this in yer address bar...
javascript:alert(document.frames[1].document.body.innerHTML)
^ that cuts off, so if you want the entire chunk of source code...
javascript:document.write(document.frames[1].document.body.innerHTML)
^ then do a view-source of the resulting page.
I like the JavaScript console in FireFox ;)
/. interesting discussion -- a *LOT* of pretty powerful web apps linked, but also a bunch of naysayers and whiners... (as usual for /. I guess ;))
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/29/000223&from=rss
- - -examples- - -
Quake: http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5657
Some full "office" suites: http://www.nyandu.com/weboffice/
Group note-taking: http://jotlive.com/
Fonzie Text Adventure! http://www.mrspeaker.net/ajax/fonz.html
Plus many frameworks to reduce the amount of actual programming needed, such as Echo2: http://www.nextapp.com/products/echo2/
and WebOrb: http://www.themidnightcoders.com/weborb/aboutWeborb.htm
Ignoring of course the obvious question of who (http://tarrysingh.blogspot.com/2005/09/google-next-software-giant.html) will eventually pwn it all...
...and the security-fearmongering that is inevitable (http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/28861)...
I wish they didn't call it "technology" and called it "methodology" instead ;)
What's really sad is, because the "AJAX" label is propagating so fast, a lot of ignoramuses (ignorami?) are describing rich DHTML pages/sites/apps as "AJAX" even when there is no XMLHTTP calls to the server... I guess "DHTML" isn't as sexy as the name of a cleaning abrasive :roll:
Another news article, 04Oct2005, about how more and more companies are realizing this is the future of web services, especially because of its future flexibility...
http://beta.news.com.com/AJAX+gives+software+a+fresh+look/2100-1007_3-5886709.html
Quote
Story last modified Tue Oct 04 10:31:00 PDT 2005
An emerging Web development technique promises to shake up the status quo in PC software and blur the line between desktop and Web applications.
Over the years, desktop applications tied to a specific operating system have become entrenched as the main way to work on a computer. AJAX, a set of development techniques standardized over the past eight years, could change all that by bringing more sophisticated interfaces to Web applications. With that, backers are hoping it can open a crack in the dominance of desktop software like Microsoft's Office, the undisputed market leader.
"This is a space that's crying out for innovation," said Scott Dietzen, president of messaging start-up Zimbra. "At this point, there isn't a company that's up to challenging Microsoft. But we're out to change that."
News.context
What's new:
Messaging company Zimbra is one of several companies betting that AJAX-style Web development will shake up the PC software market.
Bottom line:
While the AJAX development technique is likely to blur the line between desktop and Web software, it's unlikely to displace Microsoft's dominance as the leading applications provider.
More stories on AJAX
On Tuesday, closely watched Zimbra outlined its business model and announced that it has secured $16 million in venture funding at the Web 2.0 conference in San Francisco. The San Mateo, Calif.-based company said it will launch its e-mail server software as a free open-source edition next month. Customers can pay a yearly subscription fee for updates and support, and a higher-end version will be available for a price.
Zimbra is one of a growing number of companies that are betting that AJAX, which stands for Asynchronous JavaScript + XML, will turn out to be more than just a catchy abbreviation. In the development style, programmers use a number of standards-based technologies, notably JavaScript and XML, to write applications. Many Web entrepreneurs and established software providers are hoping that AJAX can reinvigorate the PC software business by marrying the graphical user interface of desktop computers with the benefits of the Web.
Clearly, nobody expects AJAX-style applications--just now entering the market--to overtake Office anytime soon. Microsoft has long controlled more than 90 percent of the desktop software market, and the company's Information Worker unit, which includes Office and related tools, generated more than $11 billion in revenue--more than one quarter of Microsoft's total revenue in fiscal year 2005, according to the company.
But companies like Zimbra are paving the way for others to enter a market long thought to be stagnant.
"My sense is that we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to browser-based applications," Dan Grossman, venture capitalist at Venrock Associates wrote in a recent blog posting. "There are many more on the way, and we'll be increasingly amazed with what can be done," he noted.
Several smaller companies are in the early stages of building AJAX-style applications that are Web-based alternatives to many PC mainstays, potentially luring away Microsoft customers. Examples include project management application Basecamp and an online calendar program now in beta from CalendarHub.
"We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to browser-based applications."
--Dan Grossman, venture capitalistAt the moment, Web pages are limited, compared with most desktop applications. AJAX frees Web pages from the clunkiness they suffer from by making them more interactive and so more functional, Web developers say.
Using AJAX, developers can create an interactive user interface that's comparable to what's available on desktop applications. For example, Microsoft Outlook users take for granted that they can drag an e-mail message into a folder, but that's not possible right now with Web-based e-mail clients like MSN Hotmail. With Ajax applications, users can move items such as windows and buttons around a Web page--much as they do with programs linked to Windows or Mac OS.
"Without AJAX, we couldn't have created a user experience that was good enough," said Seth Sternberg, co-founder of Meebo.com , a three-person start-up that provides Web-based instant messaging.
Smaller software makers such as ThinkFree and Writely could eventually create the hosted Web equivalent of Microsoft Office, analyst and writer Richard MacManus noted recently.
Mashing up e-mail
Dietzen said a Web-based architecture provides benefits to IT administrators, namely a common security system and simplified management. Perhaps more significantly, the Web-based architecture lets Zimbra combine e-mail with other applications in novel ways, he said.
"The big thing is e-mail-based 'mash-ups.' The Web is becoming this platform for collaboration. Why should we isolate e-mail?" Dietzen said.
Earlier this year, Google Maps, one of the first applications to make the benefits of AJAX development clear to a broad audience, emerged. The program enables people to use a mouse to move a map image around the screen.
Zimbra programmers have used the same techniques to make e-mail clients and servers more interactive. The company's Web-based client provides dragging and dropping calendar items and searching for past e-mails--features typically found in desktop software such as Microsoft's Outlook and Lotus Notes.
In addition, the Web-based client uses XML to combine e-mail with other applications. For example, a tie-in to the Google Maps Web service enables people to mark the location of a meeting with a Google Maps image inside the calendar application. There are also links to some packaged applications that could allow a sales person, for example, to click on a purchase order in an e-mail and pull up the relevant information directly from Oracle Financials.
AJAX-style development allowed Meebo, a San Francisco-based start-up, to jump into the instant messaging market without compromising on features, co-founder Sternberg said. The Web-based instant messaging client is expected to go into beta testing later this fall.
"The Windows-Office platform has become second nature to people."
--Joe Drouin, global CIO, TRW AutomotiveEven Microsoft is showing interest in the development technique. The next version of its Hotmail service, code-named Kahuna and now in beta testing, relies heavily on Microsoft's AJAX tooling . The same goes for the next Yahoo Mail client, which went into limited beta testing earlier this month.
Because these emerging AJAX-style applications are Web-based, they can be hosted outside a company network. They can also run on any operating system rather than just on Windows, analysts said.
On top of being cross-platform, Web applications can be accessed from multiple locations and from handheld devices or PCs. In addition, the Web approach could make administration of business applications easier, as it provides a built-in mechanism for backing up data and sending out updates, proponents said.
Developers can also take advantage of XML and Web services standards to fetch information from back-end data sources. For software users, this means that information on a Web page, such a search result or RSS feed, can updated automatically and without a reload of the page.
For all its promise, widespread use of AJAX still faces some hurdles. The development tools for writing AJAX-style applications are not as sophisticated as for other programming languages, industry executives said. To address this, products designed to make AJAX programming simpler have been released by a few companies, including JackBe, ClearNova and Midnight Coders.
Microsoft's grip
Although the idea of a Web-based alternative to Microsoft Office may sound threatening to the software giant, the company's products are deeply entrenched, particularly in the corporate market. The training costs associated with replacing Office alone make switching away from it very unlikely, said Joe Drouin, global chief information officer at TRW Automotive.
"The Windows-Office platform has become second nature to people," Drouin said. "There would have to be an amazingly compelling business case to convince me to go out and retrain 24,000 people on an all-new desktop environment, an all-new office environment and an all-new way of working."
For corporations, Microsoft has also gone to significant lengths to bring the benefits of Web server-based administration to Windows on the PC. For example, one feature called ClickOnce which will be available later this year, lets administrators install Windows applications from a server.
Microsoft executives argue that the rich graphics capabilities of native Windows applications, including multimedia, will outshine Web-only editions.
Previous Next "The new kind of applications ISVs (independent software vendors) can make (with Windows Vista) will be dramatically different from what's possible with the Web application model. I think it's clearly differentiated," said Greg Sullivan, group product manager in charge of the Windows Vista client in a recent interview.
Still, the arrival of Web-based applications with user interfaces as good as those in PC applications is a big change. The shift is big enough to make the Web browser, 10 years after its invention, more appealing as a way for people to work with software.
"The advent of AJAX has the ability to create a structural shift people didn't see coming," Meebo's Sternberg said. "The Web wasn't ever as functional or useful as client software, and AJAX just knocks that ball out of the park."
From an experianced standpoint. Users like the "Save" button, users like the "Next Page" button, and most of all, users like the "forward" and "back" buttons on their browser.
AJAX tends to eliminate most of these, though while they can be avoided in many cases, the extra work for what could easily be solved with no added presure in a page refresh.
Its got its great sides, but its not the be all end all, uber future of the interweb.
Quote from: "Shayne"From an experianced standpoint. Users like the "Save" button, users like the "Next Page" button, and most of all, users like the "forward" and "back" buttons on their browser.
AJAX tends to eliminate most of these, though while they can be avoided in many cases, the extra work for what could easily be solved with no added presure in a page refresh.
Its got its great sides, but its not the be all end all, uber future of the interweb.
Quoted for posterity -- I'm guessing less than 12 months before some word-hitting takes place ;)
Bah, we shall see -- whatever pays da bills, eh :P
Mark my words, in 12 months, the general internet will be no different then as it is today. While sure im willing to bet a few nifty websites using all the latest stuff appear, the general internet website will remain the same as it has for the last uncountable years.
What i think AJAX will really help with, is website administration. The stuff you and I dont see, thats where it has its potential to shine.
Quote from: "Shayne"What i think AJAX will really help with, is website administration. The stuff you and I dont see, thats where it has its potential to shine.
But it right now is not essentially the same as it was 12 months ago. 2004/2005 unveiled a lot of handy web apps and even suites of apps that moved more towards a thin web client, with many relying on AJAX or REST type of communication architecture (i.e. methodology, not technology, eh Mr. A?)
(sarcasm)But I'm sure Google has produced and released to great acclaim Gmail/Suggest/Maps just in order to improve their website administration.(/sarcasm)
Microsoft gets hip to AJAXhttp://news.com.com/Microsoft+gets+hip+to+AJAX/2100-1007_3-5765197.html
Quote
Not to be left out of any development trends, Microsoft is working to simplify the job of building so-called AJAX applications, or Web applications with sophisticated graphics.
The company is building software, code-named Atlas, that provides developers with tools designed to ease creation of AJAX-style applications. An early version of the software will be made available to developers at the company's Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles in September.
Web 2.0 - 5 reasons why it matters (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/09/1826206) ("another pointless buzzword-compliant article" -- v3xt0r (799856) on Friday December 09, @02:32PM )
But at least from there, I found this interesting (useful) link: Paul Graham's definition of "Web 2.0 (http://www.paulgraham.com/paulgraham/web20.html)"
My summary of his 3 points/rules/attributes:
creativity + competency + consideration
"AJAX" (i.e. methodologies and approaches, etc.) + "Democracy" (i.e. meritocracy, not credential-ocracy) + "Don't maltreat users" (i.e. DUH!)
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED. AJAX is austrailian for DEVIL!
Quote from: "Shayne"DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED. AJAX is austrailian for DEVIL!
*cough*deadhorse*cough*
In Mr. Graham's article (less Ajax-loving than Shayne seems to have presumed I was referencing :roll: ) there is a simple principle mentioned, about how "the next big thing" doesn't need to be labelled as such by PR firms, cuz teh h@x0r5 will be on board already all on their own...
Well, um, how can I put this...
Google recently released an official API for Google Maps. Why?
Cuz so many independent, just-for-fun devs were doing their OWN "hack". (e.g.
http://www.busmonster.com -- which almost got me emailing ETS, no joke...)
-You might want to brush up on your Australian there, mate ;)
Web-as-content and web-as-application are two distinct entities, we've been doing kludgy things to try to de-emphasize the web-as-content limitations on web-as-application for years now, first with Java and later with Flash and now with the "AJAX" methodology.
Most of us here have dealt with the headaches as both the developers and users of the document-oriented architecture and this is what "Web 2.0" is all about, forking the 'net into two categories, content and application. The problem is migrating to "Web 2.0" requires a whole new set or protocols and client applicaitons that require significant buy-in from developers and users and sadly most people don't see any reason to change if things work "good enough" as they do now.
Getting buy-in for a new web model is going to be a hard sell.
Hard sell, buy in... Would Microsoft's support help? One of the /.ers even said their lack of support is why things aren't advancing.
Well, funny you should mention that ... 8)
Gates' May2005 invite to Ray Ozzie to hop aboard The Good Ship Redmond may be uncertain (publicly and officially, anyway) as to motive, but these leaked memos might help reduce speculation...
http://www.hypercamp.org/2005/11/09
What we're talking about is rewiring the web so it can handle client/server interaction without having to bend one woefully inadequate interaction model into doing the job. Adding form controls to documents was the single most boneheaded move in the history of the net, we need to fix this.
If Microsoft and Sun had played nice back in the 90s this may have been an easier problem to solve since Java applications would have been available to any computer that had JRE running with little to no fuss but thanks to pigheadedness on both sides of that battle we're right back where we were a decade ago: "HTML forms suck, how do we fix them?".
Do HTML forms really suck? Most that I use work very well for what i need them to do, how else should a person pay a bill in online banking besides entering the amount into a box and the bill type from a drop down?
AJAX has a place, in the "application" aspect. On a website where im searching for information and or buying items, the last thing i need is to have the browser become useless because a developer thought we should have a refreshless un-traditional-navigatable website.
Why are we trying to make the www more then it is?
Quote from: "Shayne"Why are we trying to make the www more then it is?
*spit-take*
Mr. Graham's blurb above said the opposite -- that "Web 2.0" is basically allowing the web to be what it's naturally *supposed* to be... And if you've tried some of the recent populist-level Ajax implementations, you'd see they're not obtrusive, they don't break on incompatible browsers, and they "just make sense". Like how Apple "just works". Like how Google services are "just beta, just out there for you to play with". It all is a natural result of the backlash from Those In Suits that helped cause the 2000/2001 bubble-bursting. Which had to happen. And good things are finally coming as a result.
One example of populist-level implementations:
Amazon.com, you can "tag" any item ... and when you start typing the word/phrase, it will auto-complete for you (in a friendly way, not like IE's address bar which sometimes "thinks" for you a little too aggressively). It does this "look ahead" intelligently, quickly, and yes... unobtrusively.
Some search engines are doing similar little extras; a lot of news filtering services seem to be leading the way as a genre.
Again, if Gates and Ozzie are "rallying the troops", in a "leaked" PR^H^Hmemo then perhaps there is a lot of value to be found in exploring, encouraging, embracing a progressive viewpoint of how the "web" should actually function.
And this time, for the good of the end users, not for Those In Suits.
/RantTankEmpty
- - -
PS: Web forms aren't the problem, lazy and in
considerate devs are the problem. Sometimes original implementations are "good enough". :) Now just to use them properly... Forks and knives perform their respective functions just fine, but an idiot can make a mess of either a meal, or a fellow human being, if they wield these tools in an inefficient or irrational manner... I've seen and tried a "spork", and it may seem in theory an improvement, but it ain't. :)
Quote from: "Shayne"Do HTML forms really suck? Most that I use work very well for what i need them to do, how else should a person pay a bill in online banking besides entering the amount into a box and the bill type from a drop down?
From the user stand point they work well.. but from a data programming aspect not so well if you are speaking of plain HTML / even JavaScript..
Its the options in the drop downs that make a mess of things.. In regular forms you need to have all of the data IN the form document. If your dropdown lists could potentially have hundereds or thousands of options things get ugly fast. However if you can dynamicly populate them with calls to a database it isn't so bad.
How often have you had a set of drop down / list boxes that depend on each other. How about having three of them each being filtered by the earlier selections.. You could implement this in a few ways:
a) loading all the data into the form (huge download to client
b) doing reapeaded post backs to the server (high server load)
c) using script pull the data just for the list box dynamicly (low client and server demands)
Also most normal forms require all the data in the form to be posted in order to save anything.. In extremely long forms this requires making multipule pages. If each field saved as you entered data there would be little or no risk of data loss in the process.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4399018.stm
I just played around with "Windows Live (http://ideas.live.com/)" for 5 minutes.
...Seems to be using "AJAX", from what I can see... ;)
Makes me thing of "Google customized, lite". Possibly (probably?) rev-eng'ed from the google.com/ig source code (which would be flattery, no doubt ;) )
And I'm guessing any "gadgets" or "features" that Gates and company add to "Live", well it will be within days that http://www.google.com/ig has it too -- only working more cleanly.
Cuz http://live.com seems a bit "off". But hey, it's (wuh!?) "beta"!
PS: "Tip 1: Check out Getting Started" funny, you'd think a hyperlink would do something when clicked... :roll:
Quote from: "Shayne"Do HTML forms really suck?
Yes, yes they do and I can show you why by asking you a single question:
Is a web form more robust than the average application?
No, of course it is not. And why? Because web forms are a hasty code hack to add functionality to a technology that was designed to allow document linking. The Web As We Know It (tm) is built on a foundation of duct tape and bailing twine, it has evolved way, Way, WAY beyond it's original function. We know this and we can see where the flaws are
now, so we must architect a new web, one that is going to do what we need and do it without comprimise.
The hardest thing to do is think out of the box when it comes to addressing the deficiantcies inherant to web forms, things are mind-bendingly easy to do in most applications (multi-part forms, class persistance, input masks, responsive grids, custom user configuration, etc) are painfully difficult to implement online. Even simplistic things like field validation must be submitted to the mighty server for processing. The web has effectivly turned your home computer into a terminal, and the terminal model cannot be realistically sustained (e.g. a "slashdotted" e-commerce site).
But I digress...
It's interesting to see big business and regular home-style users finally getting furstrated with current models and being wowed by the fake-orgasm that is AJAX (it just pretends to be seemless applicaiton interaction). On one hand I am glad that a big fish like Microsoft is *finally* awknowledging that
something must be done about this web
thing, but I'm sure that coincides with the changes the .NET framework has had on the Microsoft GroupThink
"interconnected, platform independant applications! *jizzzzzzzzzzzzzz*" on the other hand it was big st00pid companies like Microsoft who've stymied progress to this effect for a long time. First with basic web standards (teh BLINK tag rulez) then with Java (re: see .NET appear 5 years later) and lately with XForms (yeah InfoPath is teh futurezzz).
With luck something can be done that won't lead to hideous fragmented camps of idealism. Now is the time to build a new web, or at least start really thinking about it.
I wonder how long it is till this "Web 2.0" thing gets dropped for the fad it is, and the next big thing comes along. I think it will be a revolutionary (not evolutionary, as ajax / web 2.0 / etc. is) technology that will change the way we all do stuff next.
HTML is a content formatting language. It's evolved over the years to try to be an application programming language, but people realized that that won't really work. So they came up with XML, JavaScript, etc. - other languages that do other things, and work together with HTML. But there's only 1 technology that still around from the beginning, and thats hardly changed at all - HTTP. And I think HTTP is going to be the plumbing for the next thing or two too, but that HTML is almost at its limits for interactive application type programming. Say instead, that the client side was written in something HTMLish - a language to describe a form/window/etc. layout, based around XML so that anything can read it - MS invented that one for us already, it's called XAML, go look it up on msdn if you're interested. We have the HTTP and XML technologies already to let the app on the client access data on the server (just like ajax does, but using something other than javascript in a browser). Now we just need something to code the UI interface in - the code behind the buttons, forms, etc. Obviously this needs to be as platform-independant as web sites are now. What we really need is something browser-like that can pull down the layout information (XAML or something else), the code behind it, and then execute all that in a secure way. MS actually has most of that with .NET and the new technologies coming with Vista, but its not cross-platform enough (but its getting closer with mono, etc).
Huh, just finding it funny that nobody in this discussion has mentioned (for or against) any of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Application_Server
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFX
...you know, since they're set to completely REPLACE "Win32" in Vista...
Interesting dev overview of WinFX found here: (seems quite significant in its changes, any thoughts M$ dev vets?)
What is WinFX -The New Programming Interface Introduced in Windows "Longhorn" (http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdntv/episode.aspx?xml=episodes/en/20031107WINFXBA/manifest.xml)
The one description language that had the best shot at what you describe Cova was XForms, but sadly it didn't get buy in.
The problem with using markup of any kind HTML, XML, XAML, XForms, etc is that it has to be very descriptive with them if you want to do anything really worthwhile on the client (e.g. validation) this is problematic in a variety of ways; large chunks of descriptive markup must be sent back and forth between the client and server, pre and post processing of markup languages loses efficiency as complexity increases and becomes downright boggy with iterative or functional programming techniques, any custom scripting or special validation must be exposed to the client and therefore becomes a risk from both IP and security perspectives. (I won't even bother talking about how flaky defining your own extensions are).
In this area I know from whence I speak; I have written my own XML based form generator, a former co-worker and I developed a description language called XToken and we wrote another XML based form generator for larger scale use for ASP.NET applications using the MVC design pattern, I messed around with InfoPath, I also have worked with implementing "AJAX" style interaction patterns with Web Services and script years before it was labelled with an obnoxious buzzword, i have written web controls that generate and process script-assited XML output. After nearly four years of cramming ASP/HTML/XML/XSL/JavaScript and Web Services together to make a rich GUI environment I can tell you that markup languages are not the way to go.
Case in point: the root markup language for HTML and XML is SGML which is a very descriptive language, so descriptive in fact it's impossible to write anything efficient in it, let alone maintainable. HTML and XML are both oversimplified subsets of it (HTML a direct descendant and XML as a derivitive).
What we need is an easy way to serialize objects over the wire that can be consumed by a client application (I don't want to call it a browser, but think of something like a browser that just generates native applications). That would solve so many issues, especially if we get away from HTTP and it's archaic implementation and consider better protocols (VOIP for example).
Quote from: "Mr. Analog"
What we need is an easy way to serialize objects over the wire that can be consumed by a client application (I don't want to call it a browser, but think of something like a browser that just generates native applications). That would solve so many issues, especially if we get away from HTTP and it's archaic implementation and consider better protocols (VOIP for example).
Hmmm... or maybe "
object" wrapping everything is part of the problem :|
Huh. Just tried to find online a decent free SuDoku generator, found
http://websudoku.com *
and the guy who made the app that generates the puzzle is young but very prolific (check out "Sig Software" from his main page: http://www.gidgreen.com/ ).
...and he's also very interested in what Paul Graham sums up as "Web 2.0" :D
http://www.gidgreen.com/interests.php
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* Dammit it's not about MATH, it's about LOGIC and PROBLEM SOLVING! So of course now I'm hooked :roll: hmmm maybe if I print out some "easy" level ones the kids can be occupied for hours at a time... :lol:
I left HTTP in my example as the network transport of choice because it's very friendly to our current internet structure, where the vast majority of workstations are behind firewalls and/or NAT devices. To use the example of VOIP (well, I'll use SIP since it's a specific network protocol, VOIP is a pretty broad technology), if you're behind NAT you're probably screwed.
And as for doing "worthwhile" things with a markup language - perhaps you missed the part of my last post where I described having 2 languages. You can't do any validation at all with HTML - none. You can have Javascript (or other-scripts) embedded in the HTML to do validation, or you can post the form back to the server and have any number of languages on the server validate the data and generate more HTML to send back. But HTML doesn't do anything at all except tell a browser how to lay out a page.
My idea is again to have 2 languages, one that describes how the app should look - HTML, XAML, etc. fill this type of role. I'm not focusing on any specific one, just that whatever it is should be able to be natively rendered by the OS without a browser-like app. The other describes how the app should act, which would be all the "worthwhile" things, like validation. This could be some type of scripting language, .NET IL, etc. - again, something that can be executed by the OS without a browser-like app. Then there's the third language, which we already have - XML. The language that describes the data that the app works with. Now give the OS support for caching the layout and code parts of the application, with automatic retreival over HTTP(s) of missing parts as they are needed (or pre-caching if more performance is needed), and you can start to get something as flexible as the web currently is, but with the interactivity of classic Win32 apps.
Quote from: "Shayne"Mark my words, in 12 months, the general internet will be no different then as it is today. While sure im willing to bet a few nifty websites using all the latest stuff appear, the general internet website will remain the same as it has for the last uncountable years.
What i think AJAX will really help with, is website administration. The stuff you and I dont see, thats where it has its potential to shine.
Decent blog that is one dude's attempt at collecting the sundry attempts throughout CyberVille to best utilize AJAX and similar:
http://www.ajaxreview.com/http://www.ajaxreview.com/pg_2.htmlAnd yes, he mentions both the "Chess" game, and the
I.M. mentioned earlier this yearOh, and P.S. Google absorbed "
Writely" 8) Things are definitely changing...
http://www.linspire.com/ajaxwrite.php
Can't say much about it yet, I'm still waiting for it to load. The site is getting hammered cause it was linked from slashdot.
Very nice look, easy resizing of "textbox" areas...
8) "We hope you enjoy ajaxWrite. Please help us make it better by visiting the forum on AjaxLaunch.com and give us your input. Also, sign up on AjaxLaunch to get priority notice of a new AJAX program launching every Wednesday!"
But just a warning: unlike Gmail (and even my own -- non-AJAX -- web apps, including even a simple online registration form) it does NOT do any kind of prompt/warning if you hit Refresh/Reload after making changes :( "save often" I guess :P
Thumbs up for functionality (the "SAVE" function creates a compatible (!) Word document .DOC and everything) but thumbs somewhat-down for not considering the diversity of potential users... Given time, we'll see.
( AjaxLaunch.com now bookmarked ;) )
A week has passed. "An application each Wednesday" eh?
Yup.
http://www.ajaxsketch.com/
Great for diagramming, flow charts, free hand drawing, and more. With a similar look and feel to popular drawing programs, you don't need to learn a new interface. Based on Ajax programming techniques, it is a completely web-based program with the quick response of conventional software.
LOL that's actually a project I gave myself about 9 months ago; a small version of Visio that would use DHTML and AJAX... Never "Got A Round Tuit" of course :rolleyes: but looks like AjaxLaunch.com guys did :)
---update---
Okay played around with it (chose Europe server since American one seems too busy) and I gotta say oops, nm re. Visio -- this "Sketch" is essentially just MS Paint using DHTML, saving as .SVG -- more like Etchasketch than Visio :P ah well, underwhelmed here + muy impresso last week = overall I believe applause for these guys is still in order :)
The latest version of Visio is GARBAGE, unless there is some kind of miracle patch out there...
Coolness -- I just tried the modified "YouSendIt.com" service (unfortunately now limited to 50MB for the free service, ah well it had to happen...) and guess what?
They now show a progress bar.
The progress bar is dynamically updated... using AJAX. Pretty sweet, do a test send and look at the source (if ya care ;) )
Brainjar has a nice (and pretty brief) overview of the server responses etc. that occur in the typical AJAX setup...
http://www.brainjar.com/dhtml/ajax/
^ includes "some code that makes it easier to perform requests and process the responses so you can focus on putting the technology to use" (http://www.brainjar.com/dhtml/ajax/default4.asp).
Very nice find. The guy's even nice enough to give a bit of code to make a JavaScript object that wraps the XMLHttpRequest object.
ajaxSketch, Write, XLS, Tunes, and "eyespot" ... even "OS" are now listed as available on the ajaxLaunch site :o
http://www.ajaxlaunch.com/
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Wow, from the features description http://www.ajaxtunes.com/ is truly revolutionary!
Ajax13 (http://www.ajaxlaunch.com/about.html) rules the universe -- or at least these neat guys (http://images.google.com/images?q=5+neat+guys) are doing a lot to make the future more futuristic than we thought it would be (http://www.google.com/search?q=southland+tales+the+future+is+far+more+futuristic) 8)
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update 2:30pm EST...
I noticed in Firefox that clicking CTRL+I (or was it +U) would show the view-source:... instead of Italic (or Underline).
So out of curiosity I decided to have a glance at the actual code. Amazingly, they didn't "compress/obfuscate" the code. In fact, it looks like most stuff has comments, along the lines of "JDoc" (e.g. @param... for the parameter name) -- a great resource for learning about Ajax, or even DOM/DHTML/Javascript programming in general. ;D
So for research purposes, anyone who is curious, enjoy...
(image)(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6769/ajaxwritemostofthejavascriptfo.gif)(/image)
^ The above broken "image" -- http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6769/ajaxwritemostofthejavascriptfo.gif
-- originally had the friendlier filename "ajaxWrite - most of the JAVASCRIPT (for research)_zip.gif". Right-click the "image" to save/download it, then rename the file with the .ZIP and have at 'er! 8)
ajaxTunes - about (http://www.mp3tunes.com/cb/about/)
( also see the secret website mentioned in the "demo" video on the AjaxOS website -- it shows the "high end users" of the service http://www.lockerenvy.com/ )
Weird, very weird.
8) VERY COOL: Sweet demo of an AJAX "form letter" combined with "Accordian" extension to "RICO" (http://www.openrico.org/rico/demos.page?demo=rico_ajax_complex)
NOTE: In case you've never heard of "RICO", it is an extension of the extremely popular and heavily extended "prototype.js". And it's focused on "rich internet application (http://www.openrico.org/rico/home.page)" stuff like drag+drop, animation, etc...
Found another nice little AJAX tutorial.
"A Simple AJAX Tutorial"
http://www.codecoffee.com/articles/ajax.html
Theyr'e not kidding; that's a very accurate title -- it is *extremely* simple, not even multi-page!
Ajaxian.com (http://ajaxian.com/page/1/) makes mention of "BJAX" (Browser Extensions plus AJAX (http://ajaxian.com/archives/bjax-with-greasemonkey-in-firefox-and-ie)) , the news that IE7 is to be distributed via Automatic Updates (http://ajaxian.com/archives/ie-7-distrubted-in-windows-update) , and there's an intriguing new open-source web IDE (based on Eclipse?) called Aptana (http://ajaxian.com/archives/aptana-new-web-ide-in-beta#comments) -- complete with "Code Assist -- on JavaScript, HTML, and CSS languages, including your own JavaScript functions" :o -- the innovations keep a-coming! 8)
PS:
"Even though AJAX wouldn?t ever have become so popular if the Javascript world hadn?t suddenly exploded with mature development and testing tools, there?s little information on how to be a really good Javascript programmer. This talk is for everyone who feels their Javascript skills just aren?t up to snuff."
-http://ajaxian.com/archives/javascript-boot-camp-tutorial (links to this page (http://www.slash7.com/articles/2006/07/26/javascript-boot-camp-tutorial))
^Helpful, since sometimes I wonder how someone who has no Javascript development experience could start from Page One, let alone "get their foot in the door" in some of the really exciting stuff :)
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Interesting, it appears that the term "AJAX" is only 18 months old (http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php).
Using "JSON" instead of XML (the "X" in "AJAX") seems to be sometimes pretty common. But most of the sites talking about it apparently assume the reader has knowledge and/or experience that some of us don't have.
Just found this: JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) explained -- quite nicely...
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-xml2json/
http://us.ajax13.com/en/index.jsp
These types of apps are starting to get impressive.
Yes, it seems the AJAX13 guys are still in the top 5 percent of the literally hundreds that are trying to do to MSOffice what Linux strives to do to Windoze... maintaining quality features and keeping their promises of a free available-anywhere alternative to bloatware. :)
a.k.a the easier-to-remeber... AjaxLaunch.com (http://forums.righteouswrath.com/index.php/topic,3147.0.html)
Opps.. Well I guess I can just lock this topic then.. Much more covered in the other one.
Quote from: Lazybones on November 12, 2006, 12:22:12 AM
Opps.. Well I guess I can just lock this topic then.. Much more covered in the other one.
3 Topics Merged into 1.
*thumbsup* perfect merge! If anyone is curious, the Ajax13.com (AjaxLaunch.com) specific discussion started here (http://forums.righteouswrath.com/index.php/topic,2148.msg20380.html#msg20380) (the stuff before that was mainly about the "technology" with some examples such as Google Maps and Windows "Live"...)