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General => Lobby => Topic started by: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 01:31:36 PM

Title: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 01:31:36 PM
So as of the first a new Carbon tax is in place.. The (posted) gas prices around my area are now 1.52/L most places still offer 3.5 less at the pump or 7.5 at super store.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Melbosa on July 02, 2008, 01:34:50 PM
Quote from: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 01:31:36 PM
So as of the first a new Carbon tax is in place.. The (posted) gas prices around my area are now 1.52/L most places still offer 3.5 less at the pump or 7.5 at super store.
A sign of things to come.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 02:00:18 PM
It gets worse
QuoteIn addition to the 2.34 cents on each litre of gasoline, the carbon tax also imposes 49.66 cents on each gigajoule of natural gas, 1.54 cents on each litre of propane and 2.61 cents on every litre of jet fuel.

The amount of the carbon tax will gradually increase each July 1 - for gasoline, to 3.51 cents in 2009, 4.68 cents in 2010, 5.85 cents in 2011 and 7.02 cents by 2012.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=979cd1f1-b159-4433-bc1c-3879057b966c
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Melbosa on July 02, 2008, 02:18:21 PM
Quote from: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 02:00:18 PM
It gets worse
QuoteIn addition to the 2.34 cents on each litre of gasoline, the carbon tax also imposes 49.66 cents on each gigajoule of natural gas, 1.54 cents on each litre of propane and 2.61 cents on every litre of jet fuel.

The amount of the carbon tax will gradually increase each July 1 - for gasoline, to 3.51 cents in 2009, 4.68 cents in 2010, 5.85 cents in 2011 and 7.02 cents by 2012.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=979cd1f1-b159-4433-bc1c-3879057b966c
I hope your wages match that.  Ouch!
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Thorin on July 02, 2008, 02:42:21 PM
There has been much debate whether it is simply a hidden Olympics tax.  (Glen?) Campbell promised it would be "revenue-neutral", meaning that his government would decrease personal and business income tax to offset the revenue from this tax, but that seems counter-intuitive.  Most people seem to expect that their income tax will stay the same and that revenue from the carbon tax will flow into the general revenue stream, which in turn will end up paying for all the work done to host the Olympics.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Tom on July 02, 2008, 02:54:14 PM
What is the point of implementing a new tax if it doesn't add to the revenue? isn't that just a waste of tax payers money? (the time and effort it took to implement said tax)
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 02:55:52 PM
Not to mention that everyone drives a different amount each year.. those that don't drive will benefit, those that CAN take transit will (the idea of the tax), but those that NEED to drive or businesses that depend on it will suffer.

The fact that they hit up natural gas and propane will also impact a wider number of people. Hell some people switched to those fuels as alternatives to gas.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Thorin on July 02, 2008, 03:24:50 PM
Well, see, voters would be pissed if you brought in a new tax on top of old taxes.  So to keep the voters happy, Campbell promised it would be "revenue-neutral".  But at the same time, Campbell wants to be seen as doing something about the environment, so he did the only thing he could think of - he brought in a carbon tax.

The tax increase is paltry compared to the increase in price of oil and natural gas.  Keep in mind, the natural gas people use to heat their home has also gone up in price.

Ultimately, this carbon tax doesn't provide enough punishment to make a person change their ways, therefore it's seen as a cash-grab to cover the cost of the Olympics.  Only time will tell if that's the correct interpretation.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Tom on July 02, 2008, 04:03:40 PM
How can it be a cash grab if its revenue-neutral?
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 04:16:10 PM
Quote from: Tom on July 02, 2008, 04:03:40 PM
How can it be a cash grab if its revenue-neutral?

When it is not revenue-neutral for everyone, or even most people.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Tom on July 02, 2008, 04:37:29 PM
Then it isn't revenue-neutral, and your premier is a lying douche!
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Thorin on July 03, 2008, 09:09:01 AM
Quote from: Lazybones on July 02, 2008, 04:16:10 PM
Quote from: Tom on July 02, 2008, 04:03:40 PM
How can it be a cash grab if its revenue-neutral?

When it is not revenue-neutral for everyone, or even most people.

The reason people see it as a cash-grab rather than a viable method of reducing carbon dioxide emissions is the same as why people consider photo radar tickets a cash-grab - there isn't enough built-in punishment to make a person change their behaviour.

Also, the premier is a politician and politicians are world-renowned for their lying douchebagginess.

Also also, he claimed it would be revenue-neutral but British Columbians have yet to see whether that's true.  He hasn't announced any official reductions in personal or business income tax yet.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Melbosa on July 03, 2008, 09:12:46 AM
Quote from: Thorin on July 03, 2008, 09:09:01 AM
lying douchebagginess

I think you just created a new word worth repeating.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Mr. Analog on July 03, 2008, 09:30:58 AM
Douchbaggery abounds, "carbon tax" thinking goes like this:

"Make carbon emissions expensive and then people will have a negative motivator to not use carbon."

Trucks still gotta roll, people still gotta go places. It might put a few more commuter butts on transit BUT the factory they still work at belches out carbon. So what then? The province puts a big tax on "messy business"? Messy business threatens to leave and in typical CanadianTM fashion the politicians will cave in and beg them to stay.

I feel that this carbon tax malarkey is just a show for the public (like ineffective yet obtrusive airport security). "Look at all we're doing to curb emissions, rest easy public consciousness!". It's meant to stick in your craw, get in the way and be a big flashy show. Is it effective? Well now ask that question to the provincial or federal government and they will do "a study" on it that will take longer to complete than people will care.

The idea of a hidden Olympics tax would really burn my biscuits though, the Olympics is a huge waste of money and is probably one of the most corrupt organizations ever, but I digress...

What we need to do if we are serious is get a small group of smart people together and brainstorm. If it turns out the best way to cut emissions in BC is to stop mining then if they are serious they will have to stop mining and deal with the human consequences. But that would never happen, because it's all just a show.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Thorin on July 03, 2008, 10:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 03, 2008, 09:30:58 AM
The idea of a hidden Olympics tax would really burn my biscuits though, the Olympics is a huge waste of money and is probably one of the most corrupt organizations ever, but I digress...

Umm...  How about the Soviet-installed puppet regimes in Eastern Europe?  I'd say those were hugely more corrupt than the IOC.

The funny thing about carbon taxing is that there are examples where it worked.  England, for example, has long had high taxes on fuel and much of that money got spent on better transit systems.  The key differences between England's taxation and BC's new carbon tax are that England charged *way more* and at the same time created a *viable alternative*.
Title: Re: New BC Carbon Tax in effect
Post by: Mr. Analog on July 03, 2008, 10:41:38 AM
Quote from: Thorin on July 03, 2008, 10:24:56 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on July 03, 2008, 09:30:58 AM
The idea of a hidden Olympics tax would really burn my biscuits though, the Olympics is a huge waste of money and is probably one of the most corrupt organizations ever, but I digress...

Umm...  How about the Soviet-installed puppet regimes in Eastern Europe?  I'd say those were hugely more corrupt than the IOC.

The funny thing about carbon taxing is that there are examples where it worked.  England, for example, has long had high taxes on fuel and much of that money got spent on better transit systems.  The key differences between England's taxation and BC's new carbon tax are that England charged *way more* and at the same time created a *viable alternative*.

I dunno man, the IOC executive has outlived all those regimes, throws potential revenue around to morally bankrupt nations and promotes Nationalistic chest-pounding. It's like the perfect venue for people like Goebbels, and that's frickin' scary.

As for England, I'm pretty sure they had a fairly solid transit infrastructure from the get go. British rail was fairly embedded for commuting all around the UK until the 60s/70s but it made a return when the carbon tax was introduced. The transit infrastructure of large centres like London weren't just a good idea, they were necessary to live there (like New York or Tokyo).

I would love to see a proliferation in transit infrastructure in North America but I don't think it really addresses the problem we have with emissions. I mean, if I could LRT it to a bullet train and go work in Ft. Mac I'm still going to be contributing to harmful greenhouse gas emission.

I think changing fuels will have a much bigger impact on the atmosphere than simply curbing how much we dump into it.

But that's just me.