Some pretty amazing news from the BBC feed today:
QuoteUS President Barack Obama has ordered the closure of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp within one year.
The order fulfils a long-standing pledge by Mr Obama.
At Mr Obama's request, military judges have already suspended several of the trials of terror suspects at the Guantanamo detention centre.
He has also ordered a review of the military trials and a ban of harsh interrogation techniques that many consider to amount to torture.
Mr Obama signed the three orders as he further distanced himself from the policies of his predecessor, George W Bush.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7845585.stm
The more important news of course is the change of policy regarding "torture". Which I am in support of.
He also put in a general order about the Fredom of information act the other day.
Yeah, stopping the torture is a great thing to do on his first day in office. Especially since any information retrieved through torture is highly likely to be incorrect or absolutely wrong, as a tortured person will simply tell the torturer whatever they want to hear. Whereas proper interrogation techniques will get the truth (although sometimes the truth isn't what the captor wants to hear).
I'm glad he's closing Gitmo. I'm glad he's also freezing wages of senior officials, banning gifts from lobbyists, and that he's stated the government has to hire people based on their skills and competencies. And on top of that, in his first day in office he's also started talking to the countries most directly involved with the Gaza conflict (Egypt, Israel, Jordan, and the Palestinians).
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/obama_inauguration/7843424.stm
Here's hoping to a better world.
So far so good! I'd say :)
I watched Road To Guantanamo (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/) last night. I recommend this film to anyone interested in Guantanamo Bay.
First day in office and he's already done some really amazing things. It's like high-fives central among my American friends. (regarding the president, there's plenty of other things to grumble about)
The FOIP decision of overturning Ashcroft's memo to generally withhold information from citizens making FOIA requests is pretty huge. It's part of the president's stated plan to increase transparency and availability of information. The decision to shut down Gitmo is even huger, it is GIANT.
The president by no means makes all the decisions in the American government but these are very bold steps that leave a strong impression of what to expect from President Obama's term in office.
Things are starting to look up :)
I think we should be cautious how this is going to play out. It's pretty easy to sit on a sofa and say what's right and wrong. It's a totally different situation when your in the middle of it. Just ask some Vietnam vets about that one.
Listening to some analysts on the radio the other day, they claim that there is a surprising amount of intel that does come out of gitmo. And, while some thing probably should be done with the majority of the prisoners, there are some seriously powerful/psychotic people in there. And what do you do with them? Kill them and make them martyrs, or put them away for life because no one has ever run criminal organizations from prison before....
I used to think this way, but after talking to the old man who was a "guest" of the Viet Cong for a couple of months, torture does more to build up a non-cooperatives resolve than anything else.
A torturer can put you under a lot of stress and break you but the quality of information you will disclose in this state is very poor.
The other factor to consider is that any military organization, however loose, will consider the possibility of an information breach through capture/torture and keep overarching plans obscured from their own people.
Case in point, your job is to go to a map co-ordinate and call in air strikes if you see evidence of material transport in progress. You don't know what kind of material is being pushed around, legally (or actually) where you are or what kind of a delivery response is going to happen or better yet, who and what is co-ordinating with you.
So your foe captures you in the middle of your job and you only know what they know from the high level. Sure, some details could come out about where you came from, how you got past enemy lines etc, but that information is less important after it's happened.
Food for thought. I'd like to see a return to the idea that if you treat people well they will co-operate with you because they want to, not because you shave their fingernails off with bamboo.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 23, 2009, 12:59:11 PM
treat people well they will co-operate with you because they want to, not because you shave their fingernails off with bamboo.
BINGO -- there was a guest author on Colbert a few months ago, fascinating discussion (Stephen made only like 3 wisecracks). The guy's name escapes me, but his book was about his own experiences as one of the (hopefully many) non-torturing interrogators utilized in the War On Terra.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on January 23, 2009, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 23, 2009, 12:59:11 PM
treat people well they will co-operate with you because they want to, not because you shave their fingernails off with bamboo.
BINGO -- there was a guest author on Colbert a few months ago, fascinating discussion (Stephen made only like 3 wisecracks). The guy's name escapes me, but his book was about his own experiences as one of the (hopefully many) non-torturing interrogators utilized in the War On Terra.
I saw that too, I thought it was pretty good. That's what you get with Colbert, most of the time silly and lampooning but sometimes thoughtful, even insightful.
Quote from: Mags on January 23, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
I think we should be cautious how this is going to play out. It's pretty easy to sit on a sofa and say what's right and wrong. It's a totally different situation when your in the middle of it. Just ask some Vietnam vets about that one.
I refer you to the man who writes under the alias "Matthew Alexander": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/interrogator-on-idaily-sh_n_149569.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/interrogator-on-idaily-sh_n_149569.html)
Quote from: Mags on January 23, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
Listening to some analysts on the radio the other day, they claim that there is a surprising amount of intel that does come out of gitmo. And, while some thing probably should be done with the majority of the prisoners, there are some seriously powerful/psychotic people in there. And what do you do with them? Kill them and make them martyrs, or put them away for life because no one has ever run criminal organizations from prison before....
Sure, analysts say there's information coming out. Notice they don't say
how they got it? They may very well have switched to relationship-based interrogation techniques a year or more ago, at least for those prisoners they don't think of as a "lost cause".
As far as there being psychotic people there, yes. Definitely. Many of them have become psychotic because of their internment and torture, others were psychotic to begin with. What to do with them will be an interesting dilemma to try and solve.
And 'twere Jon Stewart, not Stephen Colbert! I even found the video!
Quote from: Thorin on January 23, 2009, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: Mags on January 23, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
I think we should be cautious how this is going to play out. It's pretty easy to sit on a sofa and say what's right and wrong. It's a totally different situation when your in the middle of it. Just ask some Vietnam vets about that one.
I refer you to the man who writes under the alias "Matthew Alexander": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/interrogator-on-idaily-sh_n_149569.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/09/interrogator-on-idaily-sh_n_149569.html)
Quote from: Mags on January 23, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
Listening to some analysts on the radio the other day, they claim that there is a surprising amount of intel that does come out of gitmo. And, while some thing probably should be done with the majority of the prisoners, there are some seriously powerful/psychotic people in there. And what do you do with them? Kill them and make them martyrs, or put them away for life because no one has ever run criminal organizations from prison before....
Sure, analysts say there's information coming out. Notice they don't say how they got it? They may very well have switched to relationship-based interrogation techniques a year or more ago, at least for those prisoners they don't think of as a "lost cause".
As far as there being psychotic people there, yes. Definitely. Many of them have become psychotic because of their internment and torture, others were psychotic to begin with. What to do with them will be an interesting dilemma to try and solve.
So, I perhaps should have been more clear. Was not trying to be specific about torture, but more about the decisions that have to be made by the people directly involved, compared to those of us safe and cozy in our homes.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on January 23, 2009, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 23, 2009, 12:59:11 PM
treat people well they will co-operate with you because they want to, not because you shave their fingernails off with bamboo.
BINGO -- there was a guest author on Colbert a few months ago, fascinating discussion (Stephen made only like 3 wisecracks). The guy's name escapes me, but his book was about his own experiences as one of the (hopefully many) non-torturing interrogators utilized in the War On Terra.
I and I would say both are probably wrong. Torture is of course unreliable, no denying that. But, here we see human nature at work imo, if one way doesn't work the opposite must be the answer. Don't forget ALOT of these people are fanatics. The mistake is to project your values and way of thinking onto others. Many of them simply do not think as we do. We are the devil and simply must die. And even if you wipe their ass and kiss it afterwords, they will still hate you simply because you do not believe as they do.
So I think neither a bleeding heart liberal, nor a bone crushing conservative approach will work on some of these people. What will.. God knows.
"them", "their", "these people"... Just to be clear, what group of people are you referring to? The group of 200+ men detained at the Guantanamo Bay detainment center, or a vague group of millions of people living on the other side of the globe?
Also, in regards to your comments about "human nature" and projecting our values onto others, watch the clip where Stewart interviews an actual interrogator, and see what the interrogator has to say about it: http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/interviews-a-z/interviews-a/#clip120488.
Quote from: Thorin on January 23, 2009, 02:09:22 PM
And 'twere Jon Stewart, not Stephen Colbert! I even found the video!
Quote
Matthew Alexander (not his real name) is a fourteen year Air Force vet who served as an interrogator in Iraq, and he's written a book called How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq. Last night, Alexander made an appearance on The Daily Show...
...which is why Colbert didn't do as many wisecracks as usual. :)
Quote from: Thorin on January 23, 2009, 03:52:01 PM
"them", "their", "these people"... Just to be clear, what group of people are you referring to? The group of 200+ men detained at the Guantanamo Bay detainment center, or a vague group of millions of people living on the other side of the globe?
On that point, keep in mind that 99.44% of "the world" is simply Average Jo trying to put food on the table, spend time with the kids, and laugh at familiar characters on weekly sitcoms (or whatever other form of entertainment acts as an outlet to release their suibjective stress response from day to day life)... most of the folks living "over there" do not hold to all of the beliefs of their government leadership, let alone the fanatics who act out extremist beliefs (whether via violence, terrorism, or appearances on talk shows). Same goes for "us", otherwise Europeans and Asians would think all North Americans are France-hating beer-drinking angry folks who aren't smarter than a 4th grader and naively want to -- but lack the talent to -- be a famous singer.
Listen to the lyrics of Bad Religion's "Sorrow (http://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics%20Bad%20Religion%20Sorrow)" (also that fantastic Muse (http://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics%20Muse%20Knights%20Of%20Cydonia) song, "And how can we win? When fools can be Kings" ;) ). Certain parts of it really hit it home, most of the sorrow in this world comes not from the individual men and women, but those who order around those men and women (at gunpoint, or at least with an implied gun). Most of us just want to do our own thing, not bother anyone, and certainly not wipe out any other folks that we've never met (whether the reason is religion, politics, skin color, or favorite sports team).
PS:
Quote from: Mags on January 23, 2009, 02:42:42 PM
Many of them simply do not think as we do. We are the devil and simply must die. And even if you wipe their ass and kiss it afterwords, they will still hate you simply because you do not believe as they do.
So I think neither a bleeding heart liberal, nor a bone crushing conservative approach will work on some of these people. What will.. God knows.
I presume Mags is talking about "many of them" meaning many of those at Gitmo. If not, well Mags, at the recent Henry Rollins show he shared his experiences that confirm that, even in those most dangerous (so-called "evil") countries most of the average folks in the streets and marketplace are friendly, fun-loving, and willing to share stories with a stranger, even one who identifies themself as an American. They aren't interested in being violent outlets for their government leaders' fanatical hate.