Who would like to help test the d20Pro Virtual Tabletop on Tuesday night? I will DM, using a downloaded adventure with sample characters to try it out. I'm interested in how you like/dislike the interface, and whether using a Virtual Tabletop is something you'd consider if we can't do regular get-togethers.
If you want to help test you'll need to download d20Pro and get a trial license:
http://www.d20pro.com/downloads.php (http://www.d20pro.com/downloads.php)
Since it's online, anyone is welcome to join (lookin' at you, Lay-Z!)
Hmmm Might be Possible.
Make sure you post times....
I was thinking 8pm to 10:30pm MDT (http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/mdt.html). I figure that way Lay-Z might be able to join us, as for him it'd be 7pm to 9:30pm PDT (http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html).
Of course, I'm making an assumption that he'd be interested, but that's based on him actually starting this whole Virtual Tabletop idea with his iTabletop thread :P
I have added it to my calendar. I will have to check the software out.
Since doesn't look like this product includes voice or video.. Guess we will have to conference phone, or use another product to do voice and video. I was going to suggest Skype, but I don't think it runs under Linux (for tom).
Yeah, my first test would be sans voice/video. There's a chat window built in, although part of the test is how usable said chat window would be...
Then, if the idea of sitting behind a computer to play D&D with friends appeals to us and the tool works for us as a tabletop, we can look at videoconferencing software. I'll be honest, I'm not averse to chat-only online D&D if that's all we can find to work for us - chat-only online D&D is still better than no D&D.
Well I have the software loaded on my MacBook now, not much to see without a game built but I guess I am ready.
Looks like the GM/DM/Judge will have to forward the port for external gamers to be able to connect.
QuoteI was going to suggest Skype, but I don't think it runs under Linux (for tom).
I think there's a linux version actually. But since we can all probably setup SIP software it'd be easy enough to use that. I'd just need a headset or something.
Quote from: Tom on June 07, 2009, 08:10:31 PM
QuoteI was going to suggest Skype, but I don't think it runs under Linux (for tom).
I think there's a linux version actually. But since we can all probably setup SIP software it'd be easy enough to use that. I'd just need a headset or something.
When you find a free SIP client for (linux/windows/mac) that does video/video and voice as well as easy plug and play setup you give me a call.
Quote from: Lazybones on June 07, 2009, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 07, 2009, 08:10:31 PM
QuoteI was going to suggest Skype, but I don't think it runs under Linux (for tom).
I think there's a linux version actually. But since we can all probably setup SIP software it'd be easy enough to use that. I'd just need a headset or something.
When you find a free SIP client for (linux/windows/mac) that does video/video and voice as well as easy plug and play setup you give me a call.
Au contraire, you give me a call. 2001@tomasu.org see if it works. use 2002@tomasu.org as your userid/whatever. I setup proper DNS records for it according to the FAQs I was looking at, so anyone calling in should be able to get through. might also need to set your outgoing proxy to tomasu.org as well. Not sure.
As for fully crossplatform client, No idea. but kphone and ekiga seem to work ok for me.
edit: I've heard good things about SJPhone: http://www.sjlabs.com/sjp.html
So I'm confused... how are we setting up the Video/Audio? SIP or Phone?
I'll be ready to start at 8:30pm. Got a birthday party for my youngest going on in the evening, but he has to be in bed by 8:30 so I figure everyone will have left by then.
I will make sure my ports are forwarded correctly, and I will pass out connection information as soon as I know it (it's gonna be cenek.dyndns.org, that's for sure).
As for video/audio, lets deal with that later. For now, lets just use the text chat built into the d20Pro client. Who knows, maybe we don't like online tabletop gaming and we don't proceed on it OR we find that chat-based is just fine OR we eventually find a really good video- or teleconferencing method (anyone know anything about Ventrilo?).
Quote from: Thorin on June 08, 2009, 08:36:53 AM
(anyone know anything about Ventrilo?).
I've used it in MMOs. Also used Team Speak as well. They work ok, but only one person can really talk at once.
for some reason I thought this was today :o ah well. I should pay closer attention.
Startup instructions:
1. Make sure you have Java 1.6.0.10 or higher installed
2. Install d20Pro from http://www.d20pro.com/downloads.php (http://www.d20pro.com/downloads.php)
3. Get demo license from same place
4. Start d20Pro (Start->MindGene->d20Pro)
5. Click "Player" when prompted for Judge or Player
6. Enter your actual name for Player Name
7. Enter cenek.dyndns.org for IP Address
8. Enter 10101 for Port
9. Click the green checkmark button and wait for a connection to succeed
As "Judge", I then receive a request to broadcast the current map to you. I will do so, and make you owner of a token on the map that represents your character.
We'll start off out of combat so that you can move around freely, but once combat starts you will be limited to only moving on your turn.
So what about these characters you want us to play? Where are they?
Sorry, been real busy. d20Pro attaches stats to the tokens, so I hope to have some basic data entered before we start. Gotta still have a birthday party here.
I'm interested to hear your impressions, guys. Please try to point out both good and bad bits about your experience, don't just limit it to all positive or all negative.
Oh, and here's the log from the game. I really like that there's in-character chatter in the official log... To view the logfile, just hack off the .txt extension and leave the .html extension.
It is not bad, there are some areas that where made much more difficult from lack of prep.
If I was going to play a caster for example I would want all my Effects pre built before starting play. It is too bad those are not more strongly linked with the spells themselves.
I also had stability problems under Mac OS and had to run it inside a windows VM.
We NEED Voice chat at a minimum, it is too hard to explain program related issues in that little chat window.
Concerns
1. Players need better feedback on whether the Judge has received their action
2. Effects need to be explained better so Players know how to use them
3. I wish I could move the Chat and Log windows to the side instead of on the bottom, so more of the map is visible on my widescreen monitor
Prep
Yes, better prep would have helped. Apparently Players can create their own characters if they start their client in Judge mode. When they're done, they can then restart their client in Player mode and they can "Upload Creature".
Visuals
The map and tokens are only going to look as good as we can either make or find online. When creating maps, a more definitive difference between Wall and Floor needs to be used. Maybe next map I'll go old-school black (or grey) lines on white. Or something like that.
That being said, I found a Dundjinni User Art Pack last night that has hundreds of high-quality free tokens in them to use.
Voice Chat
Yes, voice chat would probably be nice. Once we get used to the app there'll be less program-related 'splainin' to do. I really liked that Melbosa threw in the in-character comments, that was cool.
Play Style
I noticed that at first no one knew how to proceed; everyone was waiting for me to move the tokens, while I was waiting for someone to say, "My character walks in". It was nice to see that we got past that fairly quickly. The intent of the tool is to let the Players tell the Judge what they want to do, and at times to just go and do it, but that it's very much still the "My character does this / My character does that" play style that is used around a table. In other words, it's not a video game with a human opponent, it's still pen-n-paper style D&D.
System-Specific Tools
d20Pro has more tools to help the game progress than the other Virtual Tabletops I tried. The other ones all focus more on being system-independent. Things like declaring an attack, or a skill check, or anything like that either have to be done through a chat window and a third-party die roller or by spending a bunch of time programming macros. While some (like MapTools) have really pretty mapping and per-character fog-of-war, I found d20Pro's system-specific tools to be surprisingly helpful last night.
As Lazy said, though, having a little more stuff prepped (especially Effects) would certainly help.
Summary
I found our test-run mostly satisfying. If I were given a choice of no D&D or D&D with d20Pro as the Virtual Tabletop, I'd pick the latter.
Question
While we were focusing on the mechanics of this tool, did you notice a bit of plot or story coming out? I did, between the narratives and the in-character comments and even one of the monsters surviving long enough to say "Arrgghhh", and I liked that. Good to see we weren't completely focused on mechanics, even in a test.
Pros
- Cross Plateform
- Relative Realtime response
- In game chat versus ooc/gm chat
- Built in tools for DnD itself
- Log of the game
- Allows for long distance participation
Cons
- Layout is limited for customization
- Not clear when you have submitted something for approval
- Cross Plateform stability issues
- Not intuitive at first to use abilities/powers
- Can see issues when the group gets larger - chat overlap, GM not able to follow everything
- No PM chat - would be nice for non-game related or quick jokes
- Shortcuts only work depending on window and item focus, which annoyed the hell out of me last night
My OpinionThe software needs work. It is well on its way now, but I don't think it is worth paying for yet (there might be software you can borrow in the mean time). There is some definite refinements and design flaws that need to be worked out. Realistate for the product seems to require a 22" or bigger monitor. Wasn't very friendly on my 17" laptop.
I personally don't mind the lack of Voice chat, as you noticed Tom played more in character than I have ever seen him do in person - and it was a blast. I've played so many MMOs that I could stick with the chat myself - although I see Lazy's point with the software support side. Video Conferencing would be nice, but I'd definitely be using 2 computers or dual monitors for that.
Again, I'm like Thorin in this... if it was between no DnD and this, I'd choose this.
I think I'd like to play once more, a whole story, with characters we've made. Then I can make my final decision.
I was on a 13" laptop, the layout could use work.
The app lacks polish, not sure about paying for it yet.
I don't really have much to add. Nothing constructive anyhow :)
Quote from: Lazybones on June 10, 2009, 05:55:26 PM
I was on a 13" laptop, the layout could use work.
The app lacks polish, not sure about paying for it yet.
I hear ya about the "polish". I tried Fantasy Grounds, and while it looks really shiny and neat, I had trouble actually figuring out how to use it (beyond picking up the photo-realistic dice and rolling them). And it sure didn't have any easy-access attacks or spells or keeping track of rounds and effects during rounds and all that.
Now, as for using
any Virtual Tabletop on a 13" laptop, well, you just aren't gonna enjoy that experience :P
Do you have another, bigger monitor Lazy? I don't know how you do it with a 13" screen. What's your resolution set at?
Quote from: Melbosa on June 10, 2009, 04:41:32 PM
I think I'd like to play once more, a whole story, with characters we've made. Then I can make my final decision.
Yeah, I'd like that as well. We could take some time and make actual characters, and then start one of the modules that I've been dying to run? It'd probably take a couple or three sessions to complete. That would give us a much better idea of whether the app works for us. The possibility of doing two or three sessions would also give us the push to set up some kind of voice chat.
Are you up for it Mel? Lazy? Tom? Anyone on the forums would be welcome to join in - Tonnica? Mr. A? Akvad? CowGirl? Rae? Darren?
(Mel, Lazy, can you double-check that "D20 Games" can be seen by all forum users?)
By the way, there's an update of d20Pro planned for release sometime over the summer.
I am interested, however even with this being more flexible I can see my self having limited time over the summer.
I can use the 17" monitor on my desktop or bring my 17" work laptop home, but that is for me to work out. I only have a small computer desk for one person in the living room these days, I no longer have the massive dedicated computer room that I had in Edmonton.
D20 Games is visible to everyone. Only the sub forums are visible to certain groups.
Quote from: Lazybones on June 12, 2009, 01:15:08 PM
I am interested, however even with this being more flexible I can see my self having limited time over the summer.
I hear ya. I don't know if you noticed, but I found there was less non-D&D chatter going on (beyond instructions on how to use the software), there wasn't that eating period at the beginning of the session (you know, where we're all eating pizza), and we were moving fairly quickly.
We didn't really start playing until 10pm because of setup requirements (creating characters, etc), and we'd moved through two encounters already in just 2.5 hours. Pretty fast compared to our old in-person sessions, especially considering we were still learning how to use the app.
In my mind, if we were to play once a week from, say, 7:30pm to 11pm (keeping in mind that you could be in bed by 11:01), I think we'd move along at a good clip. It could even be a weeknight, so we can keep our weekends open (and for you, Lazy, that'd be 6:30pm to 10pm). Is that something you'd be at least willing to try? You can always tell us, if it gets to be too much of a burden, that you need to drop out.
Quote from: Thorin on June 12, 2009, 04:00:15 PM
I hear ya. I don't know if you noticed, but I found there was less non-D&D chatter going on (beyond instructions on how to use the software), there wasn't that eating period at the beginning of the session (you know, where we're all eating pizza), and we were moving fairly quickly.
I think that is because it is less distracting when the players are privatly chatting in MSN instead of across the table. ;)
Quote from: Lazybones on June 13, 2009, 12:54:35 AM
Quote from: Thorin on June 12, 2009, 04:00:15 PM
I hear ya. I don't know if you noticed, but I found there was less non-D&D chatter going on (beyond instructions on how to use the software), there wasn't that eating period at the beginning of the session (you know, where we're all eating pizza), and we were moving fairly quickly.
I think that is because it is less distracting when the players are privatly chatting in MSN instead of across the table. ;)
What! Who was doing that?
So... Any suggestions on what voice chat software might be appropriate? I've heard TeamSpeak - what about Skype?
Well I need to get a headset of some sort before we do any voice chat. I dont even have a plain old mic :o
I'll probably get a BT headset, even if its more expensive, it'll work with my phone and my computers (I have a bt usb dongle).
BT = a bad idea since you will be sitting in front of a computer an sessions can last longer than the 4 hr typical battery on those headsets. Not to mention you can get an OK regular headset for cheap.
I suggest we use Skype or something that meets the following criteria:
- Windows / Mac clients (+ Linux but Tom was running in windows anyway)
- Hosted IE no special server configuration needed (Keep it simple)
- Supports Video as an option (mostly for me / remote players in case we need to do some visual stuff out side of the app)
- Desktop sharing might be nice as well for sharing player based maps / drawings or other stuff.
Quote- Windows / Mac clients (+ Linux but Tom was running in windows anyway)
I believe I got it working ok in linux after I realized I really wanted to use dual screen ;D
But skype should be ok.
Once we decide we're doing this regularly I'll get a headset and a webcam. then we'll have to start testing the voice/video chat before we get into another game.
So I posted a couple of bug reports and a couple of feature requests on the d20Pro forums and went to check whether they've replied.
Apparently they're planning a major upgrade to the UI for d20Pro, due "after the end of Con season". The log and chat windows will be freely movable, the chat system will have "/Tell" commands and such:
Quote
Thorin, you are in luck. Our next major release will feature an entire GUI overhaul, with floating windows and the map as the actual "desktop". You will be able to close, minimize, resize, and move all panels, panes, and windows! Look for it after the Con season, as we are working hard with Origins, Gen Con and Dragon*Con.
Quote
It's on the way! Our new chat system will feature /Tells and ability to subscribe to various Channels of information, such as Tells, Story, Combat, etc. You will also be able to modify the font color, size, and style for each channel or PC.
Look for it in the next release, within a couple of months.
Interesting, then the only issue would be the stability problems I had on my native MAC platform, although running in a VM wasn't much of a problem as this isn't a high performance app.
Well, I've seen promises made before so I won't hold my breath until it's out :P
Would be nice if it worked as they're saying, because it sounds like they're addressing our main concerns.