http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/kids-will-require-two-h1n1-shots/article1296327/#comments
The article is clearly "pro", but ahandful of the comments are articulate and rational.
Example of an interesting quote from a credible expert in the field...
Quote
"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventng or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway."
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."
Both quotes from Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, U.S. Food and Drug Agency (FDA)
Go to www.whale.to/vaccines.html
I'm being serious when I say I'm not attempting to begin here a discussion or debate on this issue. Just pleasantly surprised the comments for this G&M article has a lot of facts and opinions that are thought-provoking instead of just passionate and emotional. Certainly "food for thought" for anyone who interacts with the public regularly (or has kids).
I am not against immunization in general but I have never liked the idea of the flu shot since it is such a short term hit or miss thing..
On the news last night they talked about a study in progress that might show that the seasonal flu shot could actually make you more susceptible to H1H1.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on September 24, 2009, 12:27:58 AM
ahandful of the comments are articulate and rational.
[..]
the comments for this G&M article has a lot of facts and opinions that are thought-provoking instead of just passionate and emotional
I wouldn't equate "a handful" with "a lot"... I read all the comments and only found two that were actually thought-provoking. Here they are:
Quote from: OnTheRocks
9/22/2009 7:47:04 PM
No need to jump off the conspiracy cliff as fun as it can be (population control, Zionist conspiracies etc.). It really is this simple:
1 - Vaccines were developed to save lives and have done so. Part of our global population boom can be attributed to vaccines (and cheap oil but that's another story).
2 - Like any and everything, something inherently good can be misused, exploited, and contaminated. Vaccines with mercury. Overuse. Chemicals.
3 - Fear manipulation sells even better than sex. Big pharma and the medical industry knows this. Expect new fear triggers to be created annually; and expect new vaccines for those fear triggers to appear a little later...
4 - Capitalism predicts this sort of thing: pharma companies exist to make profit, fear makes people/govts buy more, therefore more fear = more profits
5 - People die with or without vaccines every second of every day
6 - None of these ugly truths mean vaccines are bad or wrong or to be feared. They are lifesaving technologies that are being turned into consumables. Overuse of vitamins is probably worse, but no one talks about that...
I found this one thought-provoking because it adequately addresses the world-is-gonna-end posts attached to the original article, yet does not say that we MUST or MUST NOT take the vaccine.
Quote from: ThePope
9/23/2009 12:55:47 AM
North American children are now the most vaccinated on earth. Since 1980, Canadian vaccine schedules have more than doubled the types of vaccines given: for the first 4-6 yrs of life alone, Public Health now recommends 43 doses of thirteen different vaccines. The first 8 doses are given in four shots at two months.
It?s been declared that today?s children are the first generation whose parents will outlive them.
Today, 10% of Canadian children have life threatening afflictions. In the last 25 years, concurrent with vaccine increase, there?ve been huge declines in children?s health in many categories:
Autism ? increased over 1000 times in less than one generation;
Juvenile Diabetes ? 104% increase since 1980;
Anaphylactic Food Allergies ? doubled in the last decade;
All types of Allergies ? increased nearly six times;
Obesity ? now almost 20%, 3 times the prevalence in 1980;
Attention Deficit Disorder ? now almost 10%.
http://vran.org/home/
Visit this website & get a little better informed before your child is vaccinated!
Vaccinations are NOT mandatory in Canada.
I found this one thought-provoking because I
almost fell for the trap - specifically, the idea that vaccination increase
causes all these things rather than that vaccination increase
correlates with all these things. Finding that vaccination and obesity both increased in the last 29 years does
not mean that vaccination causes obesity (or the even more absurd idea that obesity causes vaccination).
The problem in today's world is that there is so much
data, but that most people don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. It's easy to find data that
correlates, but that in no way means it
causes. More info on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) and a blog: http://256.com/gray/thoughts/2004/20040511.html (http://256.com/gray/thoughts/2004/20040511.html).
Keeping that in mind, then:
Quote from: Darren Dirt on September 24, 2009, 12:27:58 AM
Example of an interesting quote from a credible expert in the field...
Quote
"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventng or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway."
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."
Both quotes from Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, U.S. Food and Drug Agency (FDA)
Go to www.whale.to/vaccines.html
The statements in question are attributed to a seemingly credible expert. But there is no context given as to when he said these statements, or how expert he was at the time. What if he said them after retiring from 40 years of vaccine research? Then his words would have some credence. What if he said them when he was 20 and still in school, before doing any vaccine research? Then his words would have no credence.
-----
In the end, what I get from all this is a reminder to question everything and everyone, including those telling you to question everything and everyone.
It's all caused by the typical deep-fried and high-sugar, high-salt, low-water diet.
That, and Reality TV. That's what's killing our kids.
Hmm... You should figure out what Randall Munroe is really getting at with this comic:
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png)
source: http://www.xkcd.com/552/ (http://www.xkcd.com/552/)
You might have a period in your life where you stop using the word "caused", like I did...
Your post has caused me to consider doing so.
Well, maybe.
"extreme" situation = hundreds dead (of 3million)
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/swineflu/2009/10/29/11562571-sun.html
considering the same article predicts 25%of Albertans will actually get infected by H1N1, hard to not call the media's reaction an
over-reaction...
Quote
Alberta Health Services' latest pandemic response plan says 25% of Albertans will get swine flu this fall and winter and 130 to 400 people will die.
The report, released earlier this month, said the latest data suggests 875,000 people will become infected during this "second wave" of H1N1 in Alberta.
PS: as by now many of us already know somebody who has been confirmed "positive" for H1N1 (or knows a child of someone we know) here are 2 links that summarize symptoms for initial "self-assessment":
http://www.albertahealthservices.ca/658.asp
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/10/11/11371551-sun.html
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2603/4052849920_151eb84599.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelpaukner/4052849920/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelpaukner/4052849920/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelpaukner/4052849920/sizes/o/
WOW -- looks like if we just focus on PREVENTATIVE steps to keep our heart, lungs, and colon clean and clear, we'd live a long long time!
...which maybe is what They don't want, hence all the enticements that get in the way of us taking care of our bodies...
PS: holy crap, Diabetes = 100x Swine Flu. Same with DROWNINGS. O_O
One of the comments @ Flickr said "but it's the only thing that can be PREVENTED by a vaccine" ... ummm, that's less proven than the theory of VitaminD + lotsawater + plentyofsleep + reduction of fats/sugars/stress from your lifestyle. I for one am gonna try eating more fish and eggs over the next few weeks, and less sugary drinks and milky foods (just in case, gotta keep that immune system up and mucus level down!)
Well you now have an official guinea pig. I've gotten both the H1N1 vaccination and the seasonal flu shot. If I get the flu or H1N1 that's pretty good proof against the effectiveness of the vaccine. I'm going on a short trip from the 31st to the 10th so I'll be in that most dreaded of virus spreading grounds: an airplane.
While I stay cautiously dubious of the H1N1 scare (because that's what it's being played up to be) I did want the lil' slip of paper that says yes I'm innoculated when I go through US customs. I don't want to be detained after all. One less thing to worry about.
I did get a flu-like reaction from the combined shots. That was pretty sucky. My temperature jumped all the way up to 102.3 at one point along with some severe muscle aches and exaustion. It doesn't happen to everyone but boy howdy did I get it.
I've been rereading World War Z for the irony aspect considering it touches on the subject of just how prepared the world really is. Barrels of laughs (and zombies!).
Let us know how fun your hallucinations and balance problems are, if you encounter them. Audio recordings of gibberish during your next fever not necessary but appreciated.
On a serious note, thanks for the headsup. Have a fun and safe trip, and hope they don't show the King miniseries "The Stand" on the flight. ;)
So this past week the family and I have been home with the flu, or suspected flu.
You WILL not be tested for H1N1, they have stopped testing the public because treatment for H1N1 is exactly the same as regular flu.. In most provinces the only people being tested are those who have been hospitalized with flu like symptoms.
They also don't have enough shots for everyone after fear mongering everyone.
So were does this leave us? I would say right about were we have always been, only that this highlights how poor the response will be if there is ever an outbreak of something more lethal.
Quote from: Lazybones on November 07, 2009, 05:37:59 PM
So were does this leave us? I would say right about were we have always been, only that this highlights how poor the response will be if there is ever an outbreak of something more lethal.
So maybe that's what it was... a "test" for something more serious, possibly in the future. Was the test a failure, in other words, a "success"? ...
[/conspiracy guy]
docs summarizes "high doses of Vitamin D" = "just didn't get sick" (wow?)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/flus-clues/article1354921/?cid=art-rail-h1n1swineflu
I found the H1N1 vaccine has been made for the people in "Risk Zone", and not for EVERYONE. They're playing commercials that say,"If you want to protect yourself and loved ones, go and get the H1N1 vaccine. The Government of Canada would like to remind you that this vaccine is NOT FOR EVERYONE." That is what they're playing on radio stations. It's stupid.
It's called "revising history", states (i.e. countries, nations) often proclaim one "truth" for a while, to get the masses to react a certain way, then after enough desired results, they shout out a signficantly modified message, acting like the first one wasn't that big a difference from what they are saying now, soon not even publicly acknowledging the original message (harder to do now, with the internet).
See also: Bush Mission Accomplished, Rumsfeld WMDs/Iraq-Saddam-Hussein-connection-to-911, Orwell's 1984 esp. "The Memory Hole".
Or just ignore me and my 4am rants, most everyone else on the forum does ;)
We're simply distracted by your tin foil hat DD ;)
The REAL problem with vaccines are the companies that make them and the pure greed related to "helping people". Very ugly, very real.
I am sure there is a small difference per province but I swear the radio ads all end with "there is enough for everyone" here. Also the ads are heavy on "get the vaccine to protect those that can't" IE you could be in contact with someone that can't take it and has a poor immune system.
The reasoning and stats are all over the place, I really can't see taking a vaccine for such a high mutation virus like the flu. The odds of it being effective are over such a small window of time that it seems pointless. Vaccines for more stable things make lots of sense to me...
my aunt and her family all got the shot. it started with one of them who got flu like symptoms as a side effect of the shot and the passed it around like hot potato for over a month. and one was hospitalized.
i did the high dose vitamin d thing when we got sick i was the least sick out of all of us after i started taking it. i had a slight fever before but it went away shortly after taking the first dose. i didnt have enough on hand to treat us all. i was just really worried about me and baby and all my other underlaying health issues.
this was the mildest flu season in recent history even less dramatic than the 1976 swine flu scare (which was also hyped up and a big let down and they also had a mass vaccine campaign for as well.) . they were originally predicting in the states that the death rate would be double or more that of regular years. (which 36,000 die of flu complications) this year so far was maybe 10,000 or so last i looked Worldwide...
the one thing they are also doing in their add campaigns is talking about the effacy of (flu shots). (the antibody tiler response) but they fail to mention that only 50% of people tend to get i high enough a response to say it has effacy on them however that is not the same thing as effectiveness. of those 50% only half (with healthy immune/ mature immune systems) actually gained immunity from it. that is to say if everyone who got the shot was perfectly healthy only 25% had immunity from it. but if you were perfectly healthy you would likely have been able to fight it off on your own... but that also means that it its effectiveness is less 25% because most who got it had a weakened immune system from other health conditions.
those with weakened immune systems have a much lower response and children under three show no difference over placebo. many third world countries though they were getting aid from other countries even suspended the vaccines as the ones who got the shot ended up getting more sick.
one drug company actually filed for a patent on h1n1 as early as the beginning of 2008 they had ample time to get ready... but some sources say it was a lab mistake and it was "accidently" released there were even a few periodic news reports on that subject.
and do i need to remind you about the avian flu scare and what a joke that was?
ok i could go on and on with what i have learned about the corrilation to the quality of what we eat how much exorcise we get and how much sun exposure we have but i wont get into it. just remember as with any health issue you are what you eat. and what youre exposed to in your environment. and not all germs are bad for you ...
Could it be that the flu never became a serious threat because of the widespread vaccinations?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 03, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Could it be that the flu never became a serious threat because of the widespread vaccinations?
Didn't they announce that it had peeked while the "shortages" where still in effect IE only high risk category people where getting vaccinated? Also from what I gathered at the clinic when we all went in they stopped testing everyone for specific H1N1 and only tested those that had been hospitalized. IE ALL flu cases became suspected H1N1 cases despite earlier stats showing less than 30% where.
Quote from: Lazybones on January 03, 2010, 04:09:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 03, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Could it be that the flu never became a serious threat because of the widespread vaccinations?
Didn't they announce that it had peeked while the "shortages" where still in effect IE only high risk category people where getting vaccinated? Also from what I gathered at the clinic when we all went in they stopped testing everyone for specific H1N1 and only tested those that had been hospitalized. IE ALL flu cases became suspected H1N1 cases despite earlier stats showing less than 30% where.
All I know is this; H1N1 was not remarkable for it's deadliness but for it's ability to spread quickly however IF it
did mutate into something more dangerous vaccination would give peoples' immune system a head start. The initial media fueled rush caused shortages which the Gov't should have anticipated (but being the confused old darlings they are, didn't). Ahem, anyway, from what I've read what peaked was spread of infection of the initial virus, the danger now is that it mutates somewhere and slips back into circulation. So it may not be a bad idea to get your immune system used to detecting at least part of the protein coat of this flu before it makes a comeback (which, given the speed at which it spread is almost a certainty).
That said, I didn't appreciate the scaremongering and almost comedic levels of panic the media raised. That is very dangerous "boy who cried wolf" territory.
See the info is all a mess. According to everything I have read H1N1 spreads exactly the same as any flu hence the common wash your hands an use your sleave prevention rush.
The only difference was that it was able to kill a wider age group than ususal.
Forgive my limited understanding of biology but my understanding is that imunity is almost and exact match type of thing hence why mutations in cold and flu continue to spread.
The vaccination is such an easy target and so is the scaremongering. But there was a lot of useful information about prevention of catching and spreading the flu provided with the campaign.
But that's all just common sense reprinted on bits of paper and taking up space in the evening news. Total waste of money, right?
No, not really.
Before I got the mailing from Health Canada I never really considered the difference sneezing in to the crook of my elbow rather than my hands would make. I'm a pretty careful person and it was still a new and useful tidbit for me.
Now consider the number of people that caught a flu strain (doesn't matter which) this year who may not have been washing their hands thoroughly or even using soap when washing (ew!). They read the info and fearful of their own health they follow the directions. Those people are no longer coating every surface they touch with as many germs so the potential for viral transmission goes down. Suddenly less people getting sick, and that's awesome.
The information campaign was just as important as the shot itself. The vaccine wasn't really for you or I after all, it was for the sake of people at the centre of our society whose bodies can't fight the flu and could die or suffer from complications.
It's just too bad that there was so much liberty taken with how the information was passed on in newspapers and TV. The medium is the message and a scary broadcast about how "YOU and everyone you LOVE are in DANGER!!!!" will do exactly what it's meant to do; scare.
In the end some of us actually do need the shot but not all. We're a pretty healthy society and that's something to be thankful for. More people are washing their hands now, taking vitamin D, and not coming in to work sick? Even better! Preventing the spread of colds and the flu is really that easy but everyone has to do their part.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on January 03, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Could it be that the flu never became a serious threat because of the widespread vaccinations?
no.
/thread
seriously, though, there have been other "H1N1" scares, those who were adults in the 1970s (i think) were reminded this past year of what fearmongering they were a witness to back then -- and nothing came out of it, no widespread mass deaths, etc. and no vaccine push, I guess Big Pharma wasn't as powerful back then and/or didn't have the tech to mass produce the "cure" quite yet.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch "The Stand" and "They Live" on 2 monitors at once... My crazy mind has advanced to the point of being able to simultaneously watch both* "you really think they're fictional, don't you, you poor sheeple" movies...
*I wish.
actually there was a vaccine push in 76 for swine flu (h1n1) though at the time only 24% of the population (then 218,035,000 so only 46 million) had gotten the shot before it was canceled. only one death occurred from flu h1n1 (in the states I believe) and 25 had died from the shot. and at least 500 were reported to having very bad reactions to it. 5 000 sought damages against the manufacturers and now the companies have liability protection from potential damages....
. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTOXkyaFv4
the campaign now about 50% of the usa got the shot. (*of 303,824,640) so about 152 000 000
tyvm rae, for validating my conspiracy theory ... I mean, for offering actual facts (statistics, anyway) that at least kinda backed up my general summary of what I heard once (while waiting for a bus downtown late at night... ;) )
so lazy is right ii am starting to sound like you... *hides *grabs tin foil hat ~.^