Little comfort I know, but the prime catalyst for 10+ years of worldwide violence is dead and buried (at sea).
Burn in hell Osama!
a "different" point of view...
http://www.infowars.com/staged-osama-assassination-get-ready-for-more-war/
Quote
If the cheering crowd at midnight outside the White House is any indication, the American people are ready to support more mass murder in the Middle East.
The supposed hit on Osama -- without shred of evidence short of an image badly mangled in Photoshop that was debunked in short order -- will be used to reinvigorate the war on terror precisely at a time when new enemies are being manufactured in Africa.
In addition to providing additional momentum for the flagging war on terror, the staged assassination of a terrorist with ties to the CIA who died almost ten years ago serves to distract the easily distracted masses away from serious economic dangers, most notably the engineered fall of the dollar as the world's reserve currency and the related escalation of gas, food and commodity prices.
It is not certain if the government will use this unverified and unverifiable assassination -- now that we are told Osama was buried at sea -- as a pretext to engage in a false flag attack to further boost the wars and occupations abroad and expand the police state at home.
If the throng of chortling murder worshippers outside the White House last night is any indication of larger sentiment around the country in the wake of this fake assassination, it will not take much for the government to convince the people to support more mass murder in foreign lands and the continued debasement and destruction of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Oh, and btw...
http://www.infowars.com/inside-sources-bin-ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade/
http://www.infowars.com/media-runs-fake-photo-to-illustrate-bin-laden-death-propaganda/
http://www.infowars.com/osama-bin-laden-pronounced-dead%E2%80%A6-for-the-ninth-time/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/osama-bin-laden-has-been-dead-for-years.html
Just sayin'
http://www.infowars.com/government-says-osama-buried-at-sea/
lol "take our word for it, the wicked witch is dead!" (and remember to vote Conservative today, Canada! Nobody else protects you from terrorism like The Harper Government!"
enjoy the fantasy world the gubmint is nice enough to keep creating, folks... cheaper than buying comic books, just tune into CNN or FoxNoise and have at 'er!
...there, I feel better now...
Nice perspective there ::)
not just mine.
http://www.infowars.com/media-runs-fake-photo-to-illustrate-bin-laden-death-propaganda/
Quote
from FBI counterterrorism official Dale Watson, to former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, to Pakistani icon Benazir Bhutto, to CFR members, to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, all voiced publicly what the evidence clearly indicated, which is that Bin Laden died in late 2001.
don't think for a minute that final "confirmation" of Osama's death will mean an end to the "war on terror" and U.S. troops pulling out of Afghanistan, just as the capture of Saddam Hussein did absolutely nothing to speed a U.S. exit out of Iraq.
If anything, the announcement of Osama's death will only lead to more warfare and bloodshed in the region. Whether genuine or contrived, terrorist retaliation plots are already in the works and when they are unleashed, the establishment will point to them as a justification for more air strikes, more invasions and more regime change plots disguised as humanitarian aid.
In life, Bin Laden's propaganda value as an Emmanuel Goldstein hate figure was immense, but in death his usefulness to the US military-industrial complex will, for a time at least, only increase.
even FoxNoise mentioned it back in 2001.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
PS: that photo of "yesterday's" death of bin Laden? has been on the 'net for over a year:
http://www.a-w-i-p.com/years-of-deceit-us-openly-accepts-bin-la.html
Quote
YEARS OF DECEIT: US OPENLY ACCEPTS BIN LADEN LONG DEAD
11/04/10
http://www.a-w-i-p.com/media/blogs/articles/Articles6/osama_bin_laden_dead0001_1.jpg
How about DNA evidence:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americas/dna-evidence-proves-bin-ladens-death-with-99-per-cent-confidence/article2006541/
Or no wait, can't trust that either can ya ::)
Anyway, on a lighter note:
Man Unknowingly Tweets the Osama Raid:
http://idle.slashdot.org/story/11/05/02/1438254/Man-Unknowingly-Tweets-the-Osama-Raid
Not having read the links you posted, Darren, I have to posit this question:
What are sites like infowars.com trying to achieve when they post stories that question the mainstream media or government reports?
I'm not saying the mainstream media is particularly believable, or even that government reports are full of truth, but if you're going to question them then you shouldn't blindly accept non-traditional news sources either just because they're speaking contrary to said government reports. And from the tone of your posts in this thread, it appears that you have done so.
Back to the thread topic at hand - they should have kept the body and returned it to his family to show that Americans show respect for their enemies in death.
Also, it's extremely scary to consider that we invaded Afghanistan for harbouring him, then that the US gave billions in military aid to Pakistan to help fight his terrorist network, and then he's found to be living in Pakistan in a nice house in a nice neighbourhood. I don't think the US will attack Pakistan for harbouring a terrorist, or even sanction them.
Being the Mastermind he was, I'm pretty sure things will get worse from here on out. I'm sure he had a plan for when the Americans found and killed him, that is just something you don't leave out when you have a $50 million bounty on your head!
Well the thing you have to understand when it comes to political movements is that they are based on ideals and not so much people, while yes taking out a powerful individual can be important killing that person outright can turn them into a martyr for fanatics.
The more I read about where he was living and how he was living, the less I think he was a mastermind and the more I think he was scared to death. Living in a walled-up house, with only his closest, most trusted guards, with a multi-layered courier network instead of internet and email? Seriously, he was still sending out letters hand-delivered by actual couriers, instead of using electronic communications? Wow! Talk about slow dissemination of information.
No, Osama Bin Laden had mostly become a figurehead of the organization; the guys really in charge are still out there. And they're the ones that have been and will continue to plan attacks.
Reports: Computers seized at bin Laden compound
http://www.itworld.com/hardware/161511/reports-computers-seized-bin-laden-compound
Yup, at the same time it says right in that article: Bin Laden had no telephone or internet connection. So any order he wants to send, he has to send through a courier. And since it's a multilayered couriering system, that courier has to hand off to at least one other before the order reaches the commander in the field.
Basically, he could tell a commander to begin an action but he couldn't change the course of that commander's actions once they started. Compare that to Barack Obama, who was watching the raid in real-time video and could issue orders if needed directly to the men on the ground on the other side of the world.
Yep, with a structure like that data on those computers is going to be extremely valuable because for Osama it's going to have to be as comprehensive as possible to give him the "virtual eyes" he needs for his battlefield.
His compound was built kinda like an old concentric castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentric_castle):
(http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/osama_bin_laden_compound/bin_laden_compound_13.jpg)
source: http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/osama_bin_laden_compound/bin_laden_compound_13.jpg
Hah! It actually looks like a bad guy hideout you'd see in a kung fu movie or a low-rent spy flick.
What a fool he was though, everyone knows star forts are best forts (well, if you have cannons that is...)
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/03/white-house-modifies.html
According to the statements in the link no CURRENT REAL death photo has been released... Thus those floating around are just old hoax photos the media dug up again.
It may be weird to you and me, but in the Middle East walled-off compounds like this aren't entirely unusual. Maybe not everyone has enough money to have one this big, but many houses have walls around them to give the occupants privacy and contain children and animals. Same as why most houses here have six or seven foot fences around their backyards. We might not put walled areas on the tops of our houses, though...
Even if real photos are published there would still be those claiming they were faked.
At this point I'm most interested in two things:
-What's going to happen to his network of terrorists
-How much information recovered from his terror fort is going to be useful
Quote from: Thorin on May 02, 2011, 10:24:06 AM
What are sites like infowars.com trying to achieve when they post stories that question the mainstream media or government reports?
I'm not saying the mainstream media is particularly believable, or even that government reports are full of truth, but if you're going to question them then you shouldn't blindly accept non-traditional news sources either just because they're speaking contrary to said government reports. And from the tone of your posts in this thread, it appears that you have done so.
First, I don't know and don't pretend to know what is the motive behind the "alternative" voices on the internet, or on the radio, or in the newspaper, or at the bus stop.
Second, I do not blindly accept a contrary point of view just because it is contrary to mainstream. Being an unquestioning anti-authoritarian/anarchist is just as dangerous as being an unquestioning "statist" (as some people call those who ractically worship at the feet of governmental figures). So sorry that I have given that impression.
I guess this major event, the reaction of the public (at least what we see in the MSM) saddens me, nay sickens me, to see people blindly accepting government word and actually dancing in the streets celebrating the killing of someone, of whom there are so many varied opinions re. his history/existence/status.
Go with me here:
Every few hours the last few days, on the net I have found someone else, on their own, questioning the Official Story, with their unique voice and distinct perspective.
They're all saying the same basic thing, with different words, and from very different angles (i.e. liberal and conservative, conspiracy nut and law-abiding police-compliant jury-serving citizen)...
Here's one of the best I've seen -- complete with a objection-proof up front "I don't normally question things like this" disclaimer...
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/05/sorry-but-i-dont-believe-this.html
not a political blog, not a conspiracy website.
Just someone who knows when something just doesn't seem... "right". And is willing to openly point it out.
Stuff like this makes me feel happy about the future of this world, more and more people are not just blindly going along for the ride, but are actually capable of CRITICAL THINKING, i.e. willing to ask, and consider the answer to, the simple question "does what I have been told MAKE SENSE?"
Quote
When the Bolivian Army killed Che Guevara in October 1967, they displayed his body as proof that he was indeed dead. The Bolivians in fact staged the body so that ordinary people -- and the world's journalists -- could get a good view of the corpse, up close and personal.
My readers know I don't truck in conspiracy theories. I believe Elvis is dead, I believe Paul never died, I believe 9/11 was a terrorist incident, and I believe Neil Armstrong did in fact land on the moon.
But I don't believe Osama Bin Laden was killed over the weekend.
Just to be clear, I do not believe Bin Laden is still alive. I believe what a lot of intelligence analysts have been privately saying for a long time now: That Bin Laden died of kidney failure in December 2001, and that he was buried by his followers in an unmarked grave in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Bizarre: That the mastermind of the most egregious terrorist attack in U.S. history -- the worst mass killing of American citizens on U.S. soil since the Civil War, as I understand it -- was treated so la-di-da by the American defense and intelligence communities.
Yet after 2003, for the next eight years, the American military offered up a mere token effort to find him "dead or alive". An attitude that makes absolutely no sense at all --
-- unless you already know that the man is dead, and that his body will likely never be found.
supposedly following Islamic tradition that the dead must be buried within 24 hours, Osama Bin Laden was given a hurry-up burial at sea -- which explicitly goes against Islamic tradition.
Other Muslims killed by the Americans and their allies were not buried immediately. For instance, the sons of Saddam Hussein. Their corpses were held for a while, in order to confirm that they were indeed the intended targets.
But Osama Bin Laden? Killed and buried at sea in record time -- even though there hadn't been a confirmed sighting of him in something like eleven years.
In fact aside from the word of the American defense and intelligence establishment, there hasn't been a shred of evidence that they did in fact kill him.
All we have is the official word of the American defense and intelligence establishments.
Mm-hmm. Because they've always been so trustworthy.
To insist: I do not for a second doubt that he is indeed dead. I just don't believe that he was killed this past weekend. I believe that he died quite some time ago -- years ago, in fact.
I don't really see how this assassination is a "victory". President Obama claims "Justice has been done" -- but that's simply not true.
Justice would have been served if he had been captured, flown to New York, and tried in a (civilian) court for the events of 9/11.
Extra-judicial assassination is not "justice" -- it's merely revenge.
The sad thing is, we'll probably never know the truth -- which is a pity. Had Bin Laden been shown to the world's press -- just like the Bolivian Army did with Che Guevara -- there would be no doubts. Because when the Bolivian Army showed off Che Guevara's corpse, there were international cries of outrage at the "brutality" of parading his corpse around for all to see.
But not even that perennial fantasist Fidel Castro could deny the truth that El Che was indeed dead.
With Osama Bin Laden? We'll never be really sure.
^ one comment summed it up nicely:
Quote
Sunday morning the mainstream media were all skeptical about Qaddafi's son and grandkids being killed in a NATO airstrike because no bodies were produced.
Osama "killed" twelve hours later, no body, and no skepticism. Nice.
Make sure to try and avoid the new malware that uses Osama's death as a lure to get you to click a link that will install the malware:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-scams-and-viruses-spread-across-the-web/238379/
So the main sticking point, and basis of this differing point of view as I understand it, is that the body was buried at sea and not retained?
All the information we have at this point in time heavily suggests the identity:
-Whoever he was he was important, hiding in a low-profile heavily fortified mansion
-Osama bin Laden's closest relatives were all within that compound
-This person had a retinue of armed bodyguards
-Various "bin Laden sightings" within Pakistan on and off for at least 5 years
We must take on faith that the US Military is capable of correctly identifying a target and validating after death that it was indeed who they thought it was, that said we have no reason not to trust this information. (Motive?)
Again, as it's been said before on these forums with extraordinary claims come extraordinary proof. So far the proof for the counterargument is in absentia which works both ways: if the man killed was not bin Laden, where is his body (alive or otherwise) now?
I understand where you are coming from Darren, but linking to well known talk radio conspiracy theorist Alex Jones' website sets off the "O Rly?" alarms in most peoples heads (just saying).
sorry I linked to well-known conspiracy folks.
so pretend it's someone else who links to this non-conspiracy article:
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/05/sorry-but-i-dont-believe-this.html
^ the questions this "average Joe" raises are what I really am trying to focus on. It's not about the skeptics making extraordinary claims (i.e. IT WASN'T OBL). It's about looking at the official story where THEY make an extraordinary claim -- that it WAS him, but they fast-tracked his corpse's disappearance.
I say extraordinary cuz the ordinary thing would be to let the public confirm, the way they did with Che.
Why the quick "burial at sea"? Why not let the public have closure, by at least having outside 3rd parties observe and confirm, the way they did with Che? And with the claim of quick burial according to Muslim custom, then why such a stark contrast vs. Saddam's sons' corpses? And why did the mansion get burned to the ground? Why did evidence not get retained for investigation, and at least for public scrutiny/convincing?
I question the impartiality of that blogger thanks to remarks like this:
QuoteAll we have is the official word of the American defense and intelligence establishments.
Mm-hmm. Because they've always been so trustworthy.
But anyway, getting off track, show me bin Laden's body if he died in 2003 or show me where he's living if he is still alive.
semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit
QuoteWhy the quick "burial at sea"?
The best explanation I've heard so far was so his burial site didn't become a target.
Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2011, 11:11:30 AM
QuoteWhy the quick "burial at sea"?
The best explanation I've heard so far was so his burial site didn't become a target.
The official explanation that I read last was sort of two part:
-The US didn't want to have to deal with custody issues with the remains
-They didn't want extremists using the remains for symbolic purposes
Dumping at sea is certainly the least hassle option, I think it's the same logic behind the Russian decision to cremate Hitler when they found the bunker.
And now for something completely different...
(http://i.imgur.com/LiQTi.png)
:D