Has anyone come across a way to create railroads with stations where the tracks are one giant loop and the carts can be stopped at the station without using inclines / declines? I find the idea of a hill with a drop in the middle of your beautiful train station visually dysfunctional.
Unpowered, powered rail acts as a brake
The drop is not to stop the cart, and technically nether is the piston.
The stations are the way they are because:
- the drop is needed to start the cart or you need to have it right against a static block to launch
- the piston was adds to the dip so that the carts didn't slip "as often" out when the rider exits.
The newer stations with dispenser use a drop and block for launching
It might be possible to design something with sticky pistons that alters the track just for launch but it would be complicated since track blocks break if the block they are on moves, so you need to move the track and the block.
Yep, I understand that there has to be a solid block behind, or an incline. That doesn't make it pretty :P The newer drop and block design looks fine for the subway, in fact it doesn't bother me there at all. But I'm trying to design an old-timey above-ground railway station with a wooden outdoor platform, and raising the carts a couple of blocks and then dropping them right before stopping doesn't fit that theme at all.
Hmm, this can be fixed with the use of horizontal pistons pushing blocks that push the rails (you're right that a piston pushing a rail directly breaks the rail): http://youtu.be/FBA7pHmMLOo
So two pistons facing each other with four blocks of space in between. Three of those four spaces are solidblock-rail-solidblock, the fourth space is where these three slide into.
bbbrbb
p brbp
bbbrbb
activate the right piston to move the rail over and place a solid block in the way:
bbbrbb
pbrb p
bbbrbb
Then activate your rail so that you can go, because there is now a solid block behind you. Use timers to activate the left piston to reset:
bbbrbb
p brbp
bbbrbb
If you did this on both sides of where they get out of the cart, you could have a block to stop them when they're coming in (unpowered golden rails don't always stop the cart in the exact same spot), which disappears when they want to go.
Have the really fancy old school automatic stations been broken in some way? There used to be all kinds of really neat looking designs about the tubes.
Boosters, ie having another mincart on a side track nolonger works since powered rails where added.
I would say more than half the demo videos and forum posts are for the old booster method.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 15, 2012, 06:14:23 PM
Boosters, ie having another mincart on a side track nolonger works since powered rails where added.
I would say more than half the demo videos and forum posts are for the old booster method.
Yeah... hmm. Is there no way to get powered rails to work? Stick a couple of them together with a detector rail maybe? Hmmm...
If you can figure out an invisible launcher then I think Thorin will be happy.
Of course if he was REALLY going old school (Wild West) he'd use a slow-ass furnace minecart to push him through :D
UUggh, powered rail doesn't actually start up a cart on flat track, how stupid is that.
Quote from: Tom on April 15, 2012, 06:32:56 PM
UUggh, powered rail doesn't actually start up a cart on flat track, how stupid is that.
Exactly the problem, hence dip stations
Yeah, the only options I'm finding are dip stations of some kind, or slight rise + drop off. I think I'll put the rise+drop in my line to US Rail. I have an idea that'll make it work bi-directionally with a single track.
I've got a design figured out that is completely flat.
Player walks up to station, finds minecart on golden rail between two solid blocks. Player gets in minecart, pushes button at eye height. Button powers a piston that pushes the solid block out of the way and moves a rail in front of the cart. Button powers the golden rail and minecart starts moving because there is a solid block behind it. Minecart moves away, meanwhile button powers delaying repeaters that power a piston to push the rail out of the way and the solid block back.
The station now has a railway going through it with two solid blocks with an empty spot for another minecart.
Minecart comes into station, crosses detector rail. Detector rail powers a piston that pushes one of the solid blocks out of the way and moves a rail in front of the cart. Minecart stops against the other solid block (the one that moved earlier when the minecart left). The detector rail powers delaying repeaters that power a piston that pushes the rail out of the way and the solid block back.
The player gets out of the minecart. There is now a minecart between two solid blocks again.
It works really neat, but it takes a fair bit of space.
Now to find time and materiel to create it.
Sounds impressive! Got any screens?
Ask kdevil if you see him on. The station on his server is fully automated and doesn't require inclines. You can check it out for yourself at mc.kentdev.net. The main station is close to the spawn point.
I've got a hacked up station at my second base if anyone cares to check it out. single track, bi directional. Of course the station is dual track, but it works ok. Take the main US rail to my stop, then the track behind the door to my second base, and from the station there, you can get to my underground mine.
I think it's time to start diagramming the lines/stations
The main ring line is already defined as the A line though it isn't marked at all stations.
Absolutely. One of those stylized subway maps would be cool. Would we post it here somewhere?
Here's what I know for names regarding the rails:
UTA A Line
stations in clockwise order
- Spawn Station
- Biome Station
- possible new stop for TMC connector?
- Beach Station
- not a stop but a door along the route?
- Pineview Station
US Rail Main Line
- Pineview Station
- Southern Junction
US Rail Jungle Express
- Southern Junction
- Jungle Station
US Rail Frontier Line
- Southern Junction
- Frontier Station
TMC Dungeness Connector (that's my first suggestion, Tom'll wanna pick a name)
- connector to UTA A Line?
- need name for the other end by the mine?
And then there's Lenny's nether railway.
I highly suggest we go with letter designations so I can diagram it properly
Genuinely curious here, how does having a letter designation instead of a name make it easier to diagram (other than the labels requiring less text)? Won't you still use different colours / line styles for the different lines?
Make sure all stations are at standard depth.
Set out the x,y, z boundary to the system.
Have Tom run another layer with Overviewer with these limits...
Instant transit map..
O don't forget the signs/
;)
1. Because not everyone sees colours :P
2. Where multiple lines intersect at stations it simplifies signage
3. Line names may get confused with Station/Terminal names
I think giving directions may be easier too:
Go to Spawn Station, take the A to Pineview then take the B south.
Two and a half weeks ago, I never would have imagined I'd be discussing proper labeling for instructions for a transit system in a game :)
Your reasons make sense. So stations will still have names, but the railways will be alpha-enumerated. I would suggest:
UTA has the A Line. TMC's Dungeness Connector is named the B Line. US Rail's Main Line is named the C Line, Frontier Line is named the D Line, Jungle Express is named the E Line.
Stations along the A Line are: Spawn, Biome, Dungeness*, Beach, Pineview
Stations along the B Line are: Dungeness*, Kent Mine*
Stations along the C Line are: Pineview, Southern Junction
Stations along the D Line are: Southern Junction, Frontier
Stations along the E Line are: Southern Junction, Jungle
*unless Tom wants something different, I'm just making up names for him at this point
And remember to keep the source files so that if / when we change names of stations we can get it altered easily :)
Hmm, I'm gonna have to expand my existing lines to have more stations...
I personally would like to see more consistent stations, with auto / semi auto cart management along with direction of travel choice..
if we can come up with an even better design and update all major stations I am sure it would be easier for users.
I have a hard time coming up with (good) names for things. What's this about "Kent mine" though?
Also, shouldn't the whole main loop be the A line?
Quote from: Tom on April 16, 2012, 02:15:42 PM
I have a hard time coming up with (good) names for things. What's this about "Kent mine" though?
Also, shouldn't the whole main loop be the A line?
Dungeness is a place in the UK, located in the county (?) of Kent. There's a big mine there if I remember correctly. Hence when I first decided to call it the Dungeness stop, then when I needed a name for the other station by your mine, "Kent Mine" just flowed out :)
I haven't seen your railroad - is it connected to the main loop, or does one have to switch tracks? That is, does one have to get out of the cart, move to another track, place a cart, and continue on?
Lazy: I thought you had the automated cart management figured out? One of my problems as a player was that whenever I right-clicked the cart to get out, then when I tried to walk away or jump away the cart would think I was pushing it and it would take off down the track.
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
Lazy: I thought you had the automated cart management figured out? One of my problems as a player was that whenever I right-clicked the cart to get out, then when I tried to walk away or jump away the cart would think I was pushing it and it would take off down the track.
I would love to see how that is possible in my current station design, empty carts should always be collected...
Which station should I try out? I haven't ridden the A line in a little while. I do recall it happening at both the dip stations and a drop station.
Your underground stations have a little more layout space available than my planned aboveground themed station. Still, pistons probably would work really well for you. I'll see if I can get some time in the next two days and build it up so you can see.
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
Quote from: Tom on April 16, 2012, 02:15:42 PM
I have a hard time coming up with (good) names for things. What's this about "Kent mine" though?
Also, shouldn't the whole main loop be the A line?
Dungeness is a place in the UK, located in the county (?) of Kent. There's a big mine there if I remember correctly. Hence when I first decided to call it the Dungeness stop, then when I needed a name for the other station by your mine, "Kent Mine" just flowed out :)
Ah. If you've noticed kdevil join, his first name is kent I think ;D I was a tad confused.
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 02:45:43 PM
I haven't seen your railroad - is it connected to the main loop, or does one have to switch tracks? That is, does one have to get out of the cart, move to another track, place a cart, and continue on?
It's not directly connected no. The main rail stop is just a dip stop. You have to get out, pass through a door, and hop on the TMC line. I'm tempted to connect it directly, but allow you to press one of two buttons for which direction you want to go. But I'll have to figure out something clever for that.
Also, My stations aren't all at the same level. My first stop, is slightly lower than the main loop, and my mine stop is WAY lower (level 14 ish). So I don't think there is anything too clever we can do with the map generation. There might be a way to get it to highlight tracks. But I'd probably have to modify Overviewer a bit to get that to work.
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 03:05:15 PM
Which station should I try out? I haven't ridden the A line in a little while. I do recall it happening at both the dip stations and a drop station.
Your underground stations have a little more layout space available than my planned aboveground themed station. Still, pistons probably would work really well for you. I'll see if I can get some time in the next two days and build it up so you can see.
Slip still happens at the pistons, but it is reduced..
slip is REALLY hard and should never let a cart go at Beach and Biome stations... They are full dispenser, however the dispenser sometimes jams when the server lags, the carts forget to fall...
I was about to say the only slippage I've seen are the old school dip stations, Lazy's more complex cart return system works 100%, and I commute several times a session
I'm talking about pistons pushing blocks sideways, not a piston pushing down. Not at all the same. The piston pushes the rail and a block on either side so that it's no longer lined up with the rest of the rail. That then stops any possibility of a cart taking off (no connecting rail _plus_ solid blocks on either side).
The biggest problem with pistons I find is running the redstone wire without it looking crazy.
Of course you have now committed me to hours of creative mode tinkering to make my current stations level... and hid the pistons if possible..
Also have to maybe think of a way to auto un jam my dispensers with a piston or something.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 16, 2012, 04:14:01 PM
The biggest problem with pistons I find is running the redstone wire without it looking crazy.
Put it in the ground and cover it :)
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: Lazybones on April 16, 2012, 04:14:01 PM
The biggest problem with pistons I find is running the redstone wire without it looking crazy.
Put it in the ground and cover it :)
I've also seen people use open trapdoors to hide the sides of ugly blocks. It can look pretty nice if your theme is wood based.
My new stations include an incline pressure plate/fence empty cart detector that loads carts back into the dispenser if there is no rider.
There are other methods but most take up a lots of space, although some could fit a flat rail yard theme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae29zWoY-uo&feature=related
Now this is gonna sound crazy but I wonder if it would be possible to use the motion of a trap door to set a minecart in motion, it's fairly low profile and would look like a gate anyway?
AUGH I'm gonna have to fire up minecraft now
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 16, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
Now this is gonna sound crazy but I wonder if it would be possible to use the motion of a trap door to set a minecart in motion, it's fairly low profile and would look like a gate anyway?
AUGH I'm gonna have to fire up minecraft now
If it can give a cart enough momentum to hit a powered rail, then it should be good enough.
Quote from: Tom on April 16, 2012, 05:04:04 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 16, 2012, 04:55:52 PM
Now this is gonna sound crazy but I wonder if it would be possible to use the motion of a trap door to set a minecart in motion, it's fairly low profile and would look like a gate anyway?
AUGH I'm gonna have to fire up minecraft now
If it can give a cart enough momentum to hit a powered rail, then it should be good enough.
Exactly!
Heck two gates, one to start, one to stop
Arrgh, boot damn you computer BOOT
OK launching and stopping a level minecart is possible with sticky pistons however as I suspected the sticky piston must move the actual track block not one below it or not one beside it, it must scrape the track it self..
The last two blocks illustrate covering it up with some slabs to avoid thick ness..
This is just a mock up of how the pistons could do bi direction launch with the track level..
- Doesn't solve wiring
- Doesn't solve dealing with empty carts on platform when another rider arrives.
My current design takes much fewer resources and is much easier to build using drops and climbs.
Note: not visible is a redstone torch one block below the center block that provides power as SOON as the power rail slides under the cart.
So tried the gate idea, it no worky, its like unless something bumps into the cart to get it going it will stay put.
the only other thing I could think of is having another minecart crash into you from behind to get momentum rolling (reloading the system at the same time)
BEHOLD!
(note: just after writing the below I realize the only differences between this and the existing automated stations is the cart magazine would be above the platform and it uses the inertia of the reload cart to initiate momentum)
You have a magazine of minecarts sitting at the top, when the button is pressed you send a vertical signal up and loose the inclined cart in the ceiling, which gives the rider the forward launch momentum and reloads the track with another cart. Then you have the magazine drop another cart onto the incline. Tack on a cart return system (like you already have) to sort empty carts back into the magazine and you're golden!
EDIT: Incidentally, I tried this a few times, works pretty well.
My Current stations deal with the following:
- empty cart already in station and new user arrives
- User presses the "new cart" button more than once, and the cart in station is cleared unless the user clicks really fast.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 16, 2012, 06:14:58 PM
My Current stations deal with the following:
- empty cart already in station and new user arrives
- User presses the "new cart" button more than once, and the cart in station is cleared unless the user clicks really fast.
Agreed, this is just a proof of concept because I didn't know if it would work (and everything is exposed), you could add a cart return system here too using detector rails like you designed.
This might take more than one post. This technique _requires_ three delaying redstone repeaters at their full delay. I tried with less delay and the second piston wouldn't fire.
Yup, need one more post.
The problem with the drop as illustrated is that calling a cart twice will case two minecarts to merge. Unless the call button also launches the current cart.
The current design puts the call track before the incoming call detector so that one detector solves both issues...
Forgetting all of that the breaking / pulsing speed of powdered rails is not fast enough to let only one cart go.
The pez drop actually uses a special feedback property in redstone circuits to flip the trap door really fast so only one cart is released
Now, there is the obvious problem of only one cart, no dispenser system. There is also the obvious problem of what if there's already a cart and another cart comes in. I think these can be overcome.
Of note, if you look at the overview all covers on pictures, you can see that I actually have a set of steps down to the cart. This means you can right-click the cart and then just walk off, no jumping or anything. This was one of my design goals.
Next up is trying to solve the multiple carts at the station dilemma.
My station handles this by having a detector rail up track that always fires my stations launcher...
This always clears the station.
Down the track from the platform is the rider detection. It always checks the cart leaving the station for a rider and redirects empty carts, in my case directly back into the dispenser.
The general idea could be implemented flat using a different platform and different style rider detector.
Sounds like you're a lot farther along on station research and design than the rest of us :)
Do you have a tutorial or sample station anywhere that we could follow if we're building new stations? If it's a sample station, build it out in the boonies somewhere and do it all in glass (or don't cover it) so we can see the inner workings.
I'm especially interested in your riderless minecart detection system.
I really like how the riderless problem was solved a pressure plate on top of a fence post sends a signal to a switch that either sends the cart on its merry way with rider or returns it to the magazine.
Check it out in operation at Biome or Beach station
Tom, I rode your rails. Did you really dig right past coal and iron and redstone without digging it up? Or is this a case of the world spawning new materials in?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 16, 2012, 07:03:55 PM
I really like how the riderless problem was solved a pressure plate on top of a fence post sends a signal to a switch that either sends the cart on its merry way with rider or returns it to the magazine.
Check it out in operation at Biome or Beach station
I did, works pretty darn good! It feels weird to go right through that fence post the first time, though.
Quote from: Thorin on April 16, 2012, 06:54:52 PM
Sounds like you're a lot farther along on station research and design than the rest of us :)
Do you have a tutorial or sample station anywhere that we could follow if we're building new stations? If it's a sample station, build it out in the boonies somewhere and do it all in glass (or don't cover it) so we can see the inner workings.
I'm especially interested in your riderless minecart detection system.
I have posted youtube video links to both the detector tutorial and the pez tutorials previously... Please note I am not being critical of the the ideas, but trying to evolve the designs... The current Beach / BIOME stations actually take MUCH longer to build in survival due to not being able to fly and the need to dig out the area and mistakes... I also minimized as much track as I could ( you still have to cover the vertical distance of the PEZ stack which comes with about a 3-4 block high premium over the number of carts you want to store (that is why it is under rather than over)....
Yeah, but then you also said you never build it quite the same as what the tutorials show. I guess I was getting the vibe here that you wanted all the stations to copy your design, so I figured you could show us exactly what you did.
A sample station I would've figured you to build in creative mode so that you can fly and place and not use any materials, since it's not being used for anything.
Anyway, I'm having fun with pistons at the moment, trying to come up with a reverse pez dispenser that doesn't require a bunch of powered rails.
Also this discussion reminds me that I have spent a lot of time working on rail stations and other redstone projects in creative mode. As well as research.
I may almost have all the key ideas together to build a flat station with similar function to the LRT station, but the cost to build it in survival will be higher. And hide most of the tech so it looks old timey
I wonder if you can see a desktop share of creative mode over Skype?
Hmm that reminds me that my station is broken in creative mode right now.
Well I could still explain the stations on the server.
IE beach and biome needed a different switch track because of the strange orientation behavior of tracks.
lol
Yeah, we spend way too much time on this :) I can push a block in the way to stop a cart, and put a block behind it to trap it (to stop rebounding). I can even push the cart to a second track under the station floor, good for once the cart is empty. But right now I can't think of any way to do a horizontal pez dispenser - every idea I have will result in an empty cart sitting on a powered track with no solid block behind it, doing nothing.
So how many carts do you store in your dispensers?
The dispenser in beach station can store 6 carts before jamming, not counting a cart waiting on the platform.
that makes it 9 blocks tall in total, since the entrance adds one to the top (carts must fall, a cart level with the top will jam) and two at the bottom (one for the hatch and one space open below with track).
At beach station if you go through the door on left (pineview) of the plaform when facing it, then go through the maintenance door you can look behind and below to see most of the workings of the station.
carts must be piling up somewhere since I am down to one cart.
Here is a fairly simple as level station that replaces the launching setup..
Pro:
- uses half blocks for the platform so it is very low to the ground
- Achieves very good stopping
- user can walk out
Con:
- bunny hopping user can cause cart to slip forward a little out off launch position but it should not take off
- zig zag is not as clean
- piston is visible but a regular wood piston not a green sticky piston.
Woo Lazy, neat design!
I learnt first hand the other day about just how complex designing something and implementing it is in Minecraft. I built an airlock type door system for the potion brewing place (which I think only Tom has seen, since no one commented on the pics), I actually had to learn a few things about circuit design to understand how to build it in the first place and then I had to actually build the sucker. Even after building in Creative Mode I found that I hadn't roughed in enough space and had to come up with some err, interesting solutions. All the while fending off a literal horde of monsters...
It was a pain to build but very rewarding in the end (I think it's super cool heh) :)
Ya, redstone has all sorts of weird issues...
For example in this station you can see I have covered the redstone lines and repeater/delay, however this only works with halfblocks/slabs (or a air gap) since they don't conduct redstone current, if you put a full block directly over top it shorts the circuit..
I sort of had a rack shifting launcher almost working in creative, but it required two opposite pistons to move one then the other, then repeat in reverse, I could only get it working one way, then I looked at flip flop cirtius etc to solve the problem and realized it was going to take a lot of space.
Yep, it's funny there's a whole world of things you gotta know about block conductivity and how to turn on / shut off redstone
Making it go up is easy, making it go down is a pain in the butt.
I wish they had fencepost like conduits for running redstone dust up and down things...
Also, note blocks make different sounds based on what they're sitting on top of!
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 08:50:38 AM
Also, note blocks make different sounds based on what they're sitting on top of!
And don't work AT ALL if anything is on top of them..
Thorin let me know if you like that platform, if you do I will integrate a level rider detector and hide a pez dispener underground under a little wood utility shack so it fits the theme. It is going to require more surface area than my current underground stations so I hope there arn't conflicting buildings around your existing stations.
Also based on your feedback I have updated Beach and Biome stations with a slab block to make it easier to get in and out of carts there.
I was trying to play with a piston based station last night, but realized quickly that I'd need a D flip-flop to get the pistons delayed properly, and in the right order... When going in one direction one piston needs to retract slightly before the next, and the opposite needs to happen going in the other direction. Its a bit of a pain in the rear. Also I'd likely need a latch in there to be able to use a button. All that together takes up a crap load of space. Course so does my current hacked up station, so who knows.
Quote from: Tom on April 17, 2012, 11:48:05 AM
I was trying to play with a piston based station last night, but realized quickly that I'd need a D flip-flop to get the pistons delayed properly, and in the right order... When going in one direction one piston needs to retract slightly before the next, and the opposite needs to happen going in the other direction. Its a bit of a pain in the rear. Also I'd likely need a latch in there to be able to use a button. All that together takes up a crap load of space. Course so does my current hacked up station, so who knows.
That is exactly what I found, the flip flops take up massive space and are annoying to try and wire in if you are hiding them.
hence the simplified track jumper I illustrated above..
Multi direction travel can still be added by having a switch that turns you around as you leave the station.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 08:50:38 AM
Yep, it's funny there's a whole world of things you gotta know about block conductivity and how to turn on / shut off redstone
Making it go up is easy, making it go down is a pain in the butt.
I wish they had fencepost like conduits for running redstone dust up and down things...
Well, you can do the spiral staircase? Still not as nice as having the wire just go straight up, though, I agree.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 17, 2012, 11:25:18 AM
Thorin let me know if you like that platform, if you do I will integrate a level rider detector and hide a pez dispener underground under a little wood utility shack so it fits the theme. It is going to require more surface area than my current underground stations so I hope there arn't conflicting buildings around your existing stations.
Also based on your feedback I have updated Beach and Biome stations with a slab block to make it easier to get in and out of carts there.
Slabs - thank you. Even yesterday when I went to check out Tom's railway, I had to go chase carts that took off when I got out. It was either that or leave them on the track for others to run into.
Platform - I'm working on something similar but with a pistoned block on either side of the cart so that it gets trapped. Today while waiting for my son's schoolbus I realized I could set it up for the cart to leave the station after a second or two using repeaters. Thus the cart would stop at the station, wait for a bit, then leave again. With an empty cart detector and a pez dispenser, one could then continuously ride without ever clicking a button!
Anyway, I'm going to play with the idea a bit more, but I'm really interested in your level empty cart detector.
And no, I've got lots of space for my station :)
Going up with redstone is EASY going down is freaking hard (stepped spiral with room for repeaters)
It's also slower going down than up.
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 01:27:59 PM
Anyway, I'm going to play with the idea a bit more, but I'm really interested in your level empty cart detector.
Well if you want to work on your own I will go back to my other BIG project.... was just taking a break from the tedius bits of that one..
here is the link to the video about detectors again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae29zWoY-uo
3:00 - Flat Timing based detector
5:05 - Track jumping detector
7:30 - example station but not flat
Also here is an ESSENTIAL wiki page.
Redstone circuits:
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_Circuits
it looks confusing at first but when you try a few in creative, well your torch will light up is what I'm saying.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
Also here is an ESSENTIAL wiki page.
Redstone circuits:
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_Circuits
it looks confusing at first but when you try a few in creative, well your torch will light up is what I'm saying.
There is also the sticky's in this thread http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum/67-redstone-discussion-and-mechanisms/
01: To start, two sets of opposed pistons. The ones on the tpo are what stop the cart when it comes in. The ones on the bottom are what push the block behind the cart when it's time to go. The right pistons push the blocks into place, the left pistons push the rails into place.
02: Adding a detector rail and some redstone wire to activate the pistons that fire when the cart arrives to push the blocks into place. Notice the powered rail after the detector rail, to ensure the cart is going fast enough to get between the moving blocks.
Notice also the three repeaters delaying the signal to the bottom right piston. This ensures the cart gets in the middle before it closes.
Damn chicken, photobombing.
03: I used a redstone torch to show the circuitry and the pistons extending. And there's the damn chicken again.
04, 05, 06, 07: Kinda hard to show, but it's redstone wire leading to the left from the detector rail, which leads to five repeaters delaying the signal. These repeaters go deep under the left pistons, just to keep them out of the way and make this more compact.
The redstone wire then comes back out of the ground and goes to three spots: the top left piston, the bottom left piston, and the powered rail in the middle where the cart will be sitting.
08: Powered up the left side with a redstone torch to show the circuitry there. Also covered a few spots that could be covered.
09: Added some rails in a loop to see if this indeed works.
Next post, action shots!
10: Cart coming around (it's on the right side of the picture).
11: Cart getting stopped by the head block.
12: Cart getting boxed in by the tail block.
13: Head block moving out of the way.
14: Cart launching, using tail block.
15. Tail block moving out of the way.
Tada! Continuous entry/exit station using pistons and some easy wiring.
Put in a empty cart detector past the station with a side track for empty carts that leads to a pez dispenser (add that, too), then have the carts from the pez dispenser come into the station same as full carts.
Oh, and it's way easier to do this stuff in Creative mode on a super-flat world :) It'll be interesting to see how it translates to Usamot.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 17, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
Also here is an ESSENTIAL wiki page.
Redstone circuits:
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_Circuits
it looks confusing at first but when you try a few in creative, well your torch will light up is what I'm saying.
There is also the sticky's in this thread http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum/67-redstone-discussion-and-mechanisms/
For me, this stickied thread was invaluable: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/544827-redstone-guide-v121/
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 02:23:35 PM
Oh, and it's way easier to do this stuff in Creative mode on a super-flat world :) It'll be interesting to see how it translates to Usamot.
That when sand, gravel, lava, water and cave suddenly appear where you don't want them. O ya, you have to make space to jump and walk when building and your pick will break on you as you try to fix stuff and run out of resources.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 17, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 01:27:59 PM
Anyway, I'm going to play with the idea a bit more, but I'm really interested in your level empty cart detector.
Well if you want to work on your own I will go back to my other BIG project.... was just taking a break from the tedius bits of that one..
here is the link to the video about detectors again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae29zWoY-uo
3:00 - Flat Timing based detector
5:05 - Track jumping detector
7:30 - example station but not flat
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, Lazy. I think I'm going in the right direction now :)
By the way, I got stuck in that stone brick square you have built in the water... I put my cart on the rails and hit go, and a minute later I was WTF! :P
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
By the way, I got stuck in that stone brick square you have built in the water... I put my cart on the rails and hit go, and a minute later I was WTF! :P
Hmm, so did you release all of my prisoners?
I should probably disable that when I am not around, the track is just for prisoner transfer.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 17, 2012, 03:02:21 PM
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
By the way, I got stuck in that stone brick square you have built in the water... I put my cart on the rails and hit go, and a minute later I was WTF! :P
Hmm, so did you release all of my prisoners?
I should probably disable that when I am not around, the track is just for prisoner transfer.
Okay, that's getting a BIT creepy there...
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 03:04:18 PM
Okay, that's getting a BIT creepy there...
Hmm now I am wondering if there are holes I need to patch.
Quote from: Lazybones on April 17, 2012, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 17, 2012, 03:04:18 PM
Okay, that's getting a BIT creepy there...
Hmm now I am wondering if there are holes I need to patch.
I just got this image of like the Testificates creating dummies of themselves with like jack o' lantern heads and digging their way to freedom... lol
No, I didn't release any prisoners. I had some dirt with me so I built a n00b tower out the hole I fell down. Then I cleaned up after myself, removing said n00b tower.
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 08:17:23 PM
No, I didn't release any prisoners. I had some dirt with me so I built a n00b tower out the hole I fell down. Then I cleaned up after myself, removing said n00b tower.
Hehe, should probably take one section of track out so others don't fall in...
Quote from: Lazybones on April 18, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 08:17:23 PM
No, I didn't release any prisoners. I had some dirt with me so I built a n00b tower out the hole I fell down. Then I cleaned up after myself, removing said n00b tower.
Hehe, should probably take one section of track out so others don't fall in...
Or put up a sign saying the track is for prisoner transport? And why are you taking prisoners, anyway?
Quote from: Thorin on April 18, 2012, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: Lazybones on April 18, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: Thorin on April 17, 2012, 08:17:23 PM
No, I didn't release any prisoners. I had some dirt with me so I built a n00b tower out the hole I fell down. Then I cleaned up after myself, removing said n00b tower.
Hehe, should probably take one section of track out so others don't fall in...
Or put up a sign saying the track is for prisoner transport? And why are you taking prisoners, anyway?
Because he's a monster...
(http://i.imgur.com/96qZQ.jpg)
The section of track between the beach and the giant stone box has been put under water, there is now an entrance with warning signs in the village..
The track no longer falls into a deep pit, it instead now drops into a receiving pen, that has a steel door exit triggered by a button, you need to be quick and there is running water leading you to the prison cell, but that also has a close hatch on it now so you should not directly fall in even in the worst case.
This guy spent way too much time designing his railroad stations:
http://www.youtube.com/user/frumple1?ob=0&feature=results_main
But man, it's _fully_ automated.
Quote from: Thorin on April 22, 2012, 01:05:17 PM
This guy spent way too much time designing his railroad stations:
http://www.youtube.com/user/frumple1?ob=0&feature=results_main
But man, it's _fully_ automated.
I could have sworn this was posted before...
I've got a new flat design - the station itself is off on a side spur. So the cart comes along the main track then turns to the right into the station. When leaving, there's a detector rail that temporarily switches the junction up ahead (the one that made the cart turn right into the station), allowing the cart to get back on the main track going in its original direction. This works pretty darn good for uni-directional travel.
I also figured out a compact way to do empty minecart detection, also with a detector and a delay circuit and a track junction. I just don't know if it'll work in SMP.
Pics in a couple days, when I have some time to lay it out. I'm also planning to use this layout for the Southern Junction station.
Man, I gotta log in tonight and check out what's been goin' on in the server :D
Not much lately on my behalf. I've done some planning and trials in single player creative mode, for the Southern Junction and Pineview above-ground stations. I'm also starting to think I can go back to the single-track solution.
I haven't been on for several days.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 09, 2012, 03:41:50 PM
I haven't been on for several days.
I'm wondering who built the giant lava building?
http://mc.tomasu.org/#/122/64/-132/-2/0/0
I am sure if Tom checked the logs for people dieing from lava it would be easy to figure out.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 09, 2012, 03:47:48 PM
I am sure if Tom checked the logs for people dieing from lava it would be easy to figure out.
I see nothing obvious.
Wow, that's a really tall building covered in lava!
There's also a large pyramid in the Gaddrian Desert now: http://mc.tomasu.org/#/-371/64/458/-1/0/0
Okay, so here's that flat spur station.
Dig a hole 3 x 8, 3 blocks deep. Then follow the screenshots from 1 to 6, filling back in. You will end up with a side station where the cart comes in, sits for a couple seconds, then continues on. There is a nice compact empty cart detector; if the cart is empty it will be sent out an exit to the right. If the cart is full, it will continue along the main path.
This works perfectly in single player. I'm going to be trying it in multiplayer soon, hopefully it works there, too.
I was having trouble putting in a horizontal dispenser that looked nice and at the same time wasn't so close to the station that the redstone interfered with each other.
So how's it work?
Furthermore...
(http://i.imgur.com/uvKy8.jpg)
Quote from: Thorin on May 10, 2012, 12:49:41 AM
I was having trouble putting in a horizontal dispenser that looked nice and at the same time wasn't so close to the station that the redstone interfered with each other.
Use a lot of repeaters?
Or build a vertical one under ground and have a little utility wood shack over top for style.
Quote from: Thorin on May 10, 2012, 12:49:41 AM
I was having trouble putting in a horizontal dispenser that looked nice and at the same time wasn't so close to the station that the redstone interfered with each other.
Quote from: Lazybones on May 10, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Or build a vertical one under ground and have a little utility wood shack over top for style.
Yeah, I could go vertical, but then it wouldn't be horizontal :P But yeah, I was looking at how to build a proper vertical pez dispenser last night, and trying to figure out how to run the redstone for the button up cleanly.
I am not aware of any horizontal designs that would not look odd. I saw one that used water once but I am not sure it works in the current release.
Even the vertical pez sometimes fails due to lag .
So do you find you need access to the vertical pez to correct it?
I wonder if your definition of "odd" is different than mine in this case. For instance, I was trying out this horizontal dispenser to see if I could put it under a layer of glass so you can see it work. It doesn't take all that much resources, either, compared to some of the giant NOR-latched designs: http://youtu.be/_-eWvfnAmys
And just trying to find that link back, I found this other one I've never seen before: http://youtu.be/GIJPeewRwxQ. In this one the carts are constantly moving back and forth. I wonder if that'll have problems in SMP.
I also found this video about weird minecart physics on curved track: http://youtu.be/DycTzK8VGkE
And this video with a surprise twist on the minecart track: http://youtu.be/mrvHzgGgNcw
I had not seen ether of those designs before, I might actually alter beach station to test the zig zag one.... Not really that hard to install underground... Also you could probably put those in a nice long building that looked like part of the station....
The one I had seen before involved dumping carts into a long pool of running water....
Quote from: Lazybones on May 11, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
I had not seen ether of those designs befor
w00t, I found something you hadn't seen yet :) The second design with the carts constantly moving back and forth did end up with doubled-carts (where two carts occupy the same physical space) a few times. I'd seen another really neat one and even tried it out in creative single player, but can't find the video for it now :(
Quote from: Thorin on May 11, 2012, 03:05:09 PM
Quote from: Lazybones on May 11, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
I had not seen ether of those designs befor
w00t, I found something you hadn't seen yet :) The second design with the carts constantly moving back and forth did end up with doubled-carts (where two carts occupy the same physical space) a few times. I'd seen another really neat one and even tried it out in creative single player, but can't find the video for it now :(
Reliability in SMP is hard, the zig-zag looks promising since the track is always powered and the cart orientation is staggered. It might be more reliable than my current pez based one, because of the fact there is no gravity or twisting, just flat track logic.
How many carts do you usually aim to hold in your dispenser? The zig-zag one is always odd numbers - 3, 5, 7, etc. I think 5 is plenty. The more carts you try to store, the wider it gets, that's why I was trying to put it down a couple of levels under glass.
The sticky-piston-pushing-block-over-slab horizontal one isn't as wide (three blocks) but as I said I did end up with merged carts a couple of times.
I'm still trying to perfect the build so that I can draw it out and get an exact materials list.
I store 4 or 5 it really depends what you expect the distribution of travelers to be.
You need to leave capacity to store carts as well from other stations.
So about 30 hours in single player designing, 5 hours in multiplayer gathering materials, and 5 hours in multiplayer building it just right, and I've built a new spur station with the zig-zag dispenser. Five creeper explosions (apparently if there's two empty blocks and then a fence in a third block, they still go off on you!), and rebuilding from that.
Then my carts in the dispenser MOVE THROUGH SOLID @%&#ING BLOCKS. Seriously, if they're on a power rail running north-south, they move to the east on their own and PUSH THROUGH THE SOLID BLOCK THERE. So two @%&#ing physics problems right there: 1. IT'S A SOLID @%&#ING BLOCK, the cart shouldn't be able to enter its space! 2. The cart is moving 90 degrees to the direction the power rail is pointing!
<sigh>
So much for any kind of nice dispenser other than a pez, and even there I'll need an access door to fix cart glitches.
Maybe I'll just skip the dispensers and provide a chest with carts.
I can't tell you how many times I've pushed a cart inside a block and had to punch it out (by destroying the block!)
It's one REALLY frustrating aspect of minecarts they need to fix...
Also, that's a lot of creepers, time to build some mob traps :D
Yeah, I wasn't pushing the cart it was just sitting on powered rail. And then moved sideways off the powered rail. There wasn't even another cart pushing it, it was the one furthest back.
I'm thinking a chest with five carts in it is _way_ less stress than trying to get a good cart dispenser working in SMP. Maybe it's time to play with dispensers (http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Dispenser). Although those need to be loaded manually, so someone still has to put the carts in, unlike pez dispensers and the like, which auto-load themselves.
The vertical pez is fairly reliable.. I was hoping one of your new designs would be better but this explains why vertical is the most common.