http://business.financialpost.com/2012/12/01/whos-worse-off-financially-baby-boomers-generation-x-or-millennials/
"Who had it worse Boomers, Generation X or Millennials?"
Quote
...we have a bunch of advantages. We have an amazing social media as a way to connect. We?re better educated. But everyone has a university degree so you have to get a doctorate maybe to get ahead. My parents went to university and that would almost guarantee you a job. You do have to go the extra mile and you rack up a lot of debt. It?s hard to start a life now. ...They called it the Mr. Rogers complex, the idea that we didn?t want to leave the nest. It wasn?t that, it was because we couldn?t afford to go.
Agree? Disagree?
Discuss.
[suspicious]Disagree, I guess. I look back at my grandmother who lived through the Depression, then lost her husband, THEN had to support 6 people on a woman's pay from the post office (hint less than 75% of a mans pay).
At 14 my dad went to work in the Mill to help support the family, they closed the mill in 1965, so he joined the army. He and his brother sent money home and tried to pool resources as best they could, my Grandmother remarried in 1966 and my step-Grandfather was a contracting millwright which meant moving around a lot for a few years (in places like Mexico and all over Canada) before settling down in Fort McMurray.
In 1971 my dad got out of the army and drove a cab, then the bookmobile for Centennial college, did a stint as a Bouncer for a few bars on the side. Seeing that this was going nowhere fast my step-grandfather helped him to get started as a millwright, however the economy in the 70s was going to hell so dad had to pick up jobs like laying cable in the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel and other odd jobs.
He finally got a job with a scrap company in Hamilton, he did very well there but hit a glass wall, the company was run by the Jewish mafia (I wish I could make this up) and they told him outright that he couldn't go any further than he already was because he wasn't Jewish. At this point I had been born and having no real job prospects, hardly any money and a small family things were looking pretty grim.
Once again through my step-grandfather dad got a position at Syncrude and we moved up there in 1978, it was a barren place without much to do but the money was amazing, that was a bad year for my mom as there were some health issues and then after my sister was born, depression. Dad quit this job, the first real good money anyone in my family had seen for two generations, and moved back to Toronto for my mom's sake (so she could be with family), he ended up getting a job at Clarkson Refinery thanks to a friend he had made up in Fort Mac... we bounced around 4 different houses when I went from preschool to grade 1 and then in 1984 dad was laid off... once again kicked in the face
We got lucky again and he got a job with Gulf out here in Edmonton, we couldn't sell the house we were living in and had to sell it to the bank, we came here and we had barely any money... and mortgage rates in 1984 were insane.
To make things even more fun both my sister and I were handicapped and need special equipment and educational supplements... I honestly don't know how we did it.
Dad worked a lot of overtime. Mom was working as well once my sister was in Grade 1.
When I got old enough to work I started at the rink and did that until I went to college, my step-grandfather passed away and it turned out he a lot of money sitting in foreign bank accounts all over the world (thanks to contracting) it took us 3 years to find the whole estate and divide up according to his wishes with the family here and back in the UK, but basically my step-grandfather paid for college for both my sister and me.
I got out of college during the Y2K frenzy, no projects were starting up and I hadn't found any work for 5 months, Mags here helped me out but getting me an in with ISC, I agreed to work for @%&# pay because I had no choice (if I had held on one more week I would have got a job doing Java development ... oops).
Anyway, I started with low pay and kept going up that ladder rung by rung, the biggest raise I ever got was 15% but that only put me at the bottom of the scale for what I was doing if I was a beginner.
I didn't start making real money until 2005, which was a less stressful job. Even now I'm making below average money, I'm not hurting for cash but all this wear and tear lead to mental problems which made it hard for me to meet that special someone.
So now I'm set up with a decent mortgage, a great job, good pay, but I'm starting to face having to deal with retirement alone.
On the plus side I won't be swinging tools into my 50s but I doubt I will retire.[/suspicious]
So yeah, obviously things are different for different people but given that today you can earn a double income with a partner, buy things on credit, gender and race issues are a little more even and with an education you can tap into higher pay work you can do longer... I'm not sure things are any better or worse...?
All I know is that if you've never had to sew existing clothes to make them last another 6 months you're probably still doing ok.
I like the history of strong work ethic your family modelled for you.
It sounds like you are the exception for the past/present generation, where your strong efforts met with opportunities that got you to a place of relative security.
I think what the Q+A in the linked article was pointing out is that the unchangeable costs of living today = way larger than in the past, making it difficult for a family to survive without having both parents working, but also for a newly-graduated young person it's tough to get your foot in the door, unless you do the Slurpee Jockey thing for as long as it takes for a career you're qualified for to finally give you a chance at the bottom (and from which you might never move up).
I mean, sure the mortgage rates were insane in the 1980s, as were interest rates -- nowadays you might be able to get a low-interest mortgage but the total $ in the mortgage is HUGE, and also the basic RENT costs are really high (heck, between February 2012 and October 2012 I discovered a few 2 bedroom apartment rents in the Southgate area jumped from 1050/month to 1400/month... and that's the norm, not the exception).
I budget every month (and sometimes re-budget halfway due to unforeseen kid-related expenses) and there is very little "wiggle room" when it comes to where cuts can come. That wasn't really true about 5 years ago, it's like back then I could relate to what you said about "sending extra $ home", but nowadays that's a lot tougher for all but the most frugal single person (other than the "upper class" and/or business owners) imo.
And it sounds like government at all levels is kinda realizing that too (but they've got insane debt loads that make it even tougher -- and pass the pain on to the taxpayers in the form of increased and new "user fees" ... hey parents remember little extra "school fees" had to be covered by you, were covered by the taxes you pay all over the place? Doubtful that time will ever return... And remember when the monthly electricity bill was maybe 5x the minimum hourly wage? Now it's around 10x, from my quick guesstimations. And a loaf of bread, a 4L of milk? triple what it used be around 10 years ago... etc.)
The problem with this new economic/logistical reality being recognized as unsustainable (as it keeps getting worse) is that there are also a ton of young people with an entitlement attitude, who spend a bunch of $ on wants (electronics, new clothing all the time, alcohol) and then have trouble "making it on their own"... but the reality is that it's a "different" kind of tough times for the next generation... "where there's a will there's a way" used to be pretty true in North America, now ... not so much. "Fiscal Cliff" is the accepted metaphor for the present overall economic situation, and many seem to think that it trickles down most noticeably to the new graduates who haven't yet been able to start a stable career path.
The point is every generation has challenges, they can be overcome by working together with family and friends.
Even if you barely scrape by every day the sun still comes up the next.
You'll make it work one way or the other.
Better or worse? That's subjective I guess.
I'd say the problems are different. Kinda went from what most people think of serious problems to "First World Problems".
My example is a bit odd. Though I don't know a heck of a lot about my grand parents history... My dad didn't have too hard a time growing up, my mom had family issues (several step dads, one of them not so nice).
My mom married quite young. I don't think she was ready for it. 9 years younger than my dad. Dad was somewhat of a depressive jerk, with alcohol and temper issues.
We moved around a lot. I was born in Grandeprarie, then a year-ish later we moved to Dawson Creek, then 6-12 months after that we moved to Ponoka, tried to make a living with owning a store there (it went miserably), we had growing debt, and a very unhappy mom (she tried leaving several times). Finally when my mom did get away, we moved to grandmas place in Sherwood Park, where we stayed for about a year. Then we moved to Abbotsfield in a @%&#ty old rundown complex right across the street from the mall, where we were for about 4 years while my mom tried desperately to get off welfare. It is INCREDIBLY hard to get off welfare for a single parent, especially with three kids. Then we moved to a condo like place on Hooke Road. I started having serious temper issues, was bullied quite bad at my new school (Overlanders), I ran away to my dad's place, and bounced back and forth between mom's and dad's for a few years, no stable environment what so ever. In 2000 or so my brother disappeared, and was found a year later, or rather a dog found his skull. In Jr. High I was again bullied quite badly, and my normal shy/nervous nature just got worse and worse. Even after I started trying to improve myself, I found it harder to go to school. I ended up skipping a couple months at the end of Jr. High, and a couple finals. I still managed to pass with decent grades (except in English). At this point my anxiety issues were so bad I dropped out of high school several times. Kept trying because I knew it was important, but I just couldn't do it for very long. I started getting physical symptoms, hives and the like. At about my third year in grade 10, I just decided /fsck it/ and stopped trying (of course this was right around my brother going missing). Due to my sister's insistence I tried the school thing a couple more times, once with an English night class, and then at a thing called UCEP where I technically got my GED (ask me if I remember anything from that course where they squished three years of high-school in 11 months). After that I bummed around at my sister's place (Thanks Rae and Lazy!). I very likely wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Tam forcing me to move out of my dad's place. I tried my hand at a technical school, but the anxiety was just as bad as normal, so I dropped out of that, and got stuck with a 8k student loan, which has since ballooned into 12k. Eventually Rae and Lazy got sick of me, so I went on welfare and got a really @%&#ty basement suite, where I probably only got more depressed. There were times where I only went outside to go get food, and that's it. Otherwise I was inside all day, every day, sleeping 12 hours out of 24. Eventually my mom was convinced to get me a place, and my sister convinced me to apply for AISH. Both of those combined to improve my situation 100 fold. I started getting better little by little. About two years ago things started getting pretty tight money wise, and I was getting sick and tired of being a useless waste of skin ;) so I started going to therapy regularly, where I improved enormously. About a year ago, my financial situation was /dire/. I was about to the point where I would have to move out and get a @%&#ty shared apartment or something again, or just be homeless. I was desperate enough that I started looking for jobs that I could actually do. A job was posted on the a.cc forums and I thought "ah, what's the harm, I'll put my name in", and here we are today. This is my first long term job, where I get paid decently, and am able to live comfortably, and do all the important (and not so important) things I need to do. It's still hard. But I have a boss that is incredibly understanding. I could NOT be working without this kind of work-from-home, work-whenever type job. My mood swings just don't allow it. I had a rather light week this week due to it, but all's well.
So yeah, that's my wall of text to combat Darren's and Mr. As. :)
If you have a hard time reading that, I'll try and re-write it later :-X
Awesome man, awesome.
It's like you try hard enough and with help from family and friends you can do anything!
Quote from: Tom on December 08, 2012, 02:47:49 PM
So yeah, that's my wall of text to combat Darren's and Mr. As. :)
If you have a hard time reading that, I'll try and re-write it later :-X
I have a little Javascript thingie that attempts to break WOTs into single sentences...
Quote from: Tom on December 08, 2012, 02:47:49 PM
I'd say the problems are different. Kinda went from what most people think of serious problems to "First World Problems".
My example is a bit odd. Though I don't know a heck of a lot about my grand parents history... My dad didn't have too hard a time growing up, my mom had family issues (several step dads, one of them not so nice).
My mom married quite young. I don't think she was ready for it. 9 years younger than my dad. Dad was somewhat of a depressive jerk, with alcohol and temper issues.
We moved around a lot.
I was born in Grandeprarie, then a year-ish later we moved to Dawson Creek, then 6-12 months after that we moved to Ponoka, tried to make a living with owning a store there (it went miserably), we had growing debt, and a very unhappy mom (she tried leaving several times).
Finally when my mom did get away, we moved to grandmas place in Sherwood Park, where we stayed for about a year.
Then we moved to Abbotsfield in a @%&#ty old rundown complex right across the street from the mall, where we were for about 4 years while my mom tried desperately to get off welfare.
It is INCREDIBLY hard to get off welfare for a single parent, especially with three kids.
Then we moved to a condo like place on Hooke Road.
I started having serious temper issues, was bullied quite bad at my new school (Overlanders), I ran away to my dad's place, and bounced back and forth between mom's and dad's for a few years, no stable environment what so ever.
In 2000 or so my brother disappeared, and was found a year later, or rather a dog found his skull.
In Jr.
High I was again bullied quite badly, and my normal shy/nervous nature just got worse and worse.
Even after I started trying to improve myself, I found it harder to go to school.
I ended up skipping a couple months at the end of Jr.
High, and a couple finals.
I still managed to pass with decent grades (except in English).
At this point my anxiety issues were so bad I dropped out of high school several times.
Kept trying because I knew it was important, but I just couldn't do it for very long.
I started getting physical symptoms, hives and the like.
At about my third year in grade 10, I just decided /fsck it/ and stopped trying (of course this was right around my brother going missing).
Due to my sister's insistence I tried the school thing a couple more times, once with an English night class, and then at a thing called UCEP where I technically got my GED (ask me if I remember anything from that course where they squished three years of high-school in 11 months).
After that I bummed around at my sister's place (Thanks Rae and Lazy!).
I very likely wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Tam forcing me to move out of my dad's place.
I tried my hand at a technical school, but the anxiety was just as bad as normal, so I dropped out of that, and got stuck with a 8k student loan, which has since ballooned into 12k.
Eventually Rae and Lazy got sick of me, so I went on welfare and got a really @%&#ty basement suite, where I probably only got more depressed.
There were times where I only went outside to go get food, and that's it.
Otherwise I was inside all day, every day, sleeping 12 hours out of 24.
Eventually my mom was convinced to get me a place, and my sister convinced me to apply for AISH.
Both of those combined to improve my situation 100 fold.
I started getting better little by little.
About two years ago things started getting pretty tight money wise, and I was getting sick and tired of being a useless waste of skin ;) so I started going to therapy regularly, where I improved enormously.
About a year ago, my financial situation was /dire/.
I was about to the point where I would have to move out and get a @%&#ty shared apartment or something again, or just be homeless.
I was desperate enough that I started looking for jobs that I could actually do.
A job was posted on the a.cc forums and I thought "ah, what's the harm, I'll put my name in", and here we are today.
This is my first long term job, where I get paid decently, and am able to live comfortably, and do all the important (and not so important) things I need to do.
It's still hard.
But I have a boss that is incredibly understanding.
I could NOT be working without this kind of work-from-home, work-whenever type job.
My mood swings just don't allow it.
I had a rather light week this week due to it, but all's well.
And as a result, just read it. Blown away by your honesty and bluntness, man. Depression sucks, nice to see you stumbled your way forward and got to where you are more empowered and things are looking up. Family is def. where it's at -- I would not have gone into therapy if it wasn't for Dionne and her best friend being blunt (re. how it was affecting the kids, mainly) but also supportive as I first showed a hint of willingness to acknowledge I had a @%&#ton of work to do on my self.
Over the last 2 years my teenage son has also been encouraging and really was one of the key figures in getting me back on track in my spiritual/emotional life which thus led to me manning the eff up in a whole lot of ways including reconciliation with my wife. It was never easy, definitely a very personal kind of scary to face who you really are and actually share it openly with others, but all the hard work in the Real stuff is certainly rewarding. But work's not done yet ;)
So... consensus seems to be that circumstances today might be a certain kind of "worse" than previous generations, harder to get the momentum going, but there's always gonna be folks who rise above any horrible circumstances* due to inner tenacity and family/friends i.e. a real support network that are there for you in the long haul. (that's my interpretation anyway).
*heck just think how many WW2 camp survivors ended up starting small businesses in America...
Comparing different generations and their financial situations, you have to keep in mind not only what things cost but also how big / useful / safety-enhancing they are. If we were to buy cars as safe as those in 1970, and houses as big as those in 1970, and only used telephones or face-to-face meetings to talk to people, then you'd be surprised how much we can afford now compared to our parents back then.
But things have changed (as they always do) - cars are safer, these safety systems cost money, thus cars cost more (after factoring in inflation) - houses are bigger with more styling than the old rectangles of the past, thus requiring more raw materials and more labour to build, thus houses cost more (after factoring in inflation) - etc.
The Mr. Rogers complex referred to in the article does exist. Young people these days don't want to move out because they like the big houses their parents bought for them to grow up in. Who wants to move from a 3000 square foot house with big backyard and multiple bigscreen TVs to an 800 square foot apartment where you have to pay your own cable, internet, and electricity?
Now compare that to the boomers' childhoods, growing up in small houses owned by parents who scrimped and saved because of their childhood experiences with the Great Depression. The boomers' parents' houses were small, not that comfortable, and not that much better than an apartment. The boomers didn't like that, as a group, and bought bigger, more comfortable houses. The boomers' parents bought a car and used it until it broke, then fixed it, then used it more; the boomers are the ones who started the whole buy-new-every-three-to-five-years trend in car sales.
All that said, I completely understand young people not wanting to move out due to the cost of living on your own - it definitely costs more than it used to, and it's definitely a step down in living conditions from most parents' houses. I think the biggest failing of previous generations, though, is saddling future generations with national debt to pay for our current standards of living - we were doing so well paying down our national debt with surpluses galore, and then things went awry and we started borrowing again to pay for government services and the national debt went back to what it had been ten years prior.
edit: About our national debt: http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=42
Good point, it's like the Boomers raised the standard of living to a not-longterm-sustainable level, and now whine when their kids/grandkids want to experience it without paying the cost -- while their kids/grandkids whining is actually kinda justified since the Boomers set up a social/economic system that is ballooning to death in order to pay for everything thus resulting in more and more of everybody's paycheque disappearing even if they are willing to try and make major personal cuts to the budget. It's like everybody's right kinda, but the Problem is so big that everybody also feels (is?) helpless to fix it.
Personally I think anyone living in a "three" thousand foot home is ridic. I mean unless you hire a maid, how the hell do you keep it all clean? I am happy to know my kids have always lived in apartments or townhomes and have no problem buying the cheap version of stuff at the grocery store, they all LOVE dollarama, and most of their clothes are from VV or GW and that's nothing to embarrassed about (pretty much twice a year they get new-in-the-mall-stores clothing, other than discount new clothes stores like Winners etc.) ... setting up an unrealistic expectation for "happiness" for your kids = a recipe for disappointed kids, and probably your own frustration too. Silly Boomers... what with your over-compensating and whatnot...
but hey what do I know, I just totally don't understand the economic theory that "the more we owe, the wealthier we are" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjbPZAMked0)
Quote from: Thorin on December 10, 2012, 10:27:04 AM
edit: About our national debt: http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=42
:blink: (http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=40) "In 1990,
38 cents of every dollar taken by Ottawa was spent just paying the annual interest on our federal debt. Thanks to increased tax revenues, lower interest rates and 11 straight years of debt repayment, that figure is down to 12 cents. Why would we want to go back?"
Mmmmhhh, I think there is also a sense of entitlement from a lot of kids, which is creeping into adulthood. Like there is an expectation of a certain lifestyle without effort.
I see a lot of people on tumblr who are in their early/mid 20s and have absolutely no desire whatsoever to go out and find something to do (of their own volition.) They feel it's ok to just live in their own personal bubble as long as there is shelter, food and internet.
These same people are also mostly depressed, I don't know if there is a connection or what but, they seem emotionally needy all the time.
It could just be the slice I'm seeing but there are a lot of listless people who need a kick in the rear.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on December 10, 2012, 01:01:26 PM
Mmmmhhh, I think there is also a sense of entitlement from a lot of kids, which is creeping into adulthood. Like there is an expectation of a certain lifestyle without effort.
I see a lot of people on tumblr who are in their early/mid 20s and have absolutely no desire whatsoever to go out and find something to do (of their own volition.) They feel it's ok to just live in their own personal bubble as long as there is shelter, food and internet.
These same people are also mostly depressed, I don't know if there is a connection or what but, they seem emotionally needy all the time.
heck yeah there's a connection -- the "emotionally needy" makes sense cuz there is an emotional NEED that their "safe" bubble life prevents from being met, it's called by many names, community, connection, closeness, family, etc... but yeah it's like sunshine or water, you can get by with a minimal amount but it feels pretty damn yucky. Get a healthy amount, you feel like a million emotion-bucks aka "cure" for depression (for some).
I dunno, what I also see are parents who molly coddle their kids and DON'T kick them out of the house for being a lazy ass.
They try to be nice and help them out but are met with hostility "I DON'T WANT A JOB MOM!", when it's a 13 year old okay, when they're 24 though?
Again this is all anecdotal and not really worth discussing, there are plenty of highly motivated young adults out there, it's just I see the lazy ones and shake my head, life is going to be difficult for them because they aren't engaging it at all.
So I guess that's what I'm trying to say, life isn't easy (when is it?) but it's going to be EXTRA HARD if you don't get stuck in and take control, or even an interest in, your life.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on December 10, 2012, 01:10:15 PM
it's going to be EXTRA HARD if you don't get stuck in and take control, or even an interest in, your life.
for some reason your final wording got my brain recalling this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whose_Life_Is_It_Anyway%3F
also, some deep thinking guy from the Flower Power years said something about how 'your' kids are not YOUR kids (http://www.katsandogz.com/onchildren.html) and I think that leads to a corollary: hey grown-up kids "your" parents are not YOUR parents i.e. not your property, not your unpaid servants, not your ATM, not your free babysitters, not your emotional punching bags, not your entitlement-ensurers... Grow the eff up.
And thumbs to all of you who already did.
I don't have kids but I think the best course is to give them freedom with structure and ensure when they ask questions about life or how the world works be honest, learn it together. No sugar coating but no gut punches either.
Hippie dippie idealism is just as damaging as totalitarian authority, there's a happy medium in there somewhere I'm sure.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on December 10, 2012, 12:05:19 PM
Personally I think anyone living in a "three" thousand foot home is ridic. I mean unless you hire a maid, how the hell do you keep it all clean? I am happy to know my kids have always lived in apartments or townhomes and have no problem buying the cheap version of stuff at the grocery store, they all LOVE dollarama, and most of their clothes are from VV or GW and that's nothing to embarrassed about (pretty much twice a year they get new-in-the-mall-stores clothing, other than discount new clothes stores like Winners etc.) ... setting up an unrealistic expectation for "happiness" for your kids = a recipe for disappointed kids, and probably your own frustration too. Silly Boomers... what with your over-compensating and whatnot...
Want what you have instead of trying to have what you want. That said, I have no qualms with people buying large homes or expensive clothes - if they can afford it, good for them.
What you're saying above sounds more like you think you're better than others because your kids lived in apartments. What I think you intended it to sound like, though, is that we should not measure our self-worth and our success or failure based on our belongings because it won't make us happy. And that I can agree with, although I do still hold the opinion that going from poor to being able to afford some gadgets can make you have a sunnier outlook on life.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on December 10, 2012, 12:05:19 PM
but hey what do I know, I just totally don't understand the economic theory that "the more we owe, the wealthier we are" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjbPZAMked0)
I owe way, way, way more money than my 15yo son, yet I would consider myself way, way, way wealthier than him. I watched the interview you linked to, and it's a reporter trying to bait a politician into providing a good soundbite (and he succeeds). Debt isn't directly an indicator of wealth, but those who are wealthy can more easily afford debt. It's always a question of what that debt is used for, though - national debt to build infrastructure that lasts past the time it takes to pay off is alright, whereas debt to pay for ephemeral substances is not.
-----
Hmm, between me starting this post and getting ready to post it, a bunch of other replies came up. So to address the new points: Kids need rules and structure. As an example, they hate having a curfew, but they love being able to use the curfew as an excuse to leave a situation they don't know how to get out of, and when they're finally grown up they remember that the curfew was there to help protect them not just to hinder them.
Kids go through phases: 1. utter dependency, 2. desire to please parents, 3. desire to please peer group, 4. finding their own identity, 5. becoming a useful member of society (notice I didn't say "contributing", as not everyone can contribute but still everyone can be useful). Parents can help push kids through these phases by pushing their kids a bit, reminding them that no matter what happens they're loved but at the same time the kids will have to face the consequences of their actions, and by modelling being a useful member of society. There are parents out there who don't care about doing this, who only care about entertaining themselves through life, and today's electronic gadgets make that so much easier than it used to be - in the old days to really ignore the kids and be a bad parent and distance yourself from them, you pretty much had to drink.
For me, it's been an ongoing discussion of fairness. "You want me to buy your new video games while you spend your money buying slurpees and candy? How about I buy myself slurpees and candy while you buy your video games?" Kids are naturally self-centered (there are always exceptions, though) and we need to help them see the world through others' eyes. Sure, I'm willing to pay for things for my kids, but there comes a point where I'm going to feel taken advantage of and I will make sure to let them know before it gets there. I've told them all that when they're done high school, if they're not pursuing college they will have to pay room and board at home. I will help them better their lives, but I will not just give them the money I've worked hard for.
Quote from: Thorin on December 10, 2012, 02:05:58 PM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on December 10, 2012, 12:05:19 PM
Personally I think anyone living in a "three" thousand foot home is ridic. I mean unless you hire a maid, how the hell do you keep it all clean? I am happy to know my kids have always lived in apartments or townhomes and have no problem buying the cheap version of stuff at the grocery store, they all LOVE dollarama, and most of their clothes are from VV or GW and that's nothing to embarrassed about (pretty much twice a year they get new-in-the-mall-stores clothing, other than discount new clothes stores like Winners etc.) ... setting up an unrealistic expectation for "happiness" for your kids = a recipe for disappointed kids, and probably your own frustration too. Silly Boomers... what with your over-compensating and whatnot...
I have no qualms with people buying large homes or expensive clothes - if they can afford it, good for them.
What you're saying above sounds more like you think you're better than others because your kids lived in apartments.
ummm... no offense, but imo if you interpreted it that way it might say something about you more than about me. I said that I am happy they do not have un-attain-able or un-sustain-able standards for material stuff to lead to so-called happiness. No morality judgement there, compared to others, in terms of worth (i.e. "better"), just more of a relief that in this current age of cheap-everything-with-very-little-effort my kids are "better off" in terms of accepting the limits of reality, compared to ... heck, even me. Doesn't make them better, just decreases probability of them being suckered into self-directed materialism depression.
imho.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on December 10, 2012, 01:43:16 PM
I don't have kids but I think the best course is to give them freedom with structure and ensure when they ask questions about life or how the world works be honest, learn it together. No sugar coating but no gut punches either.
Hippie dippie idealism is just as damaging as totalitarian authority, there's a happy medium in there somewhere I'm sure.
I think I see what you did there.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/R9TQ1zkMIl8/0.jpg)
I think.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z2HpB5CGfLQ/hqdefault.jpg)
on-topic with the above, Time Magazine's Joel Stein says "Millienials" are the "Me Me Me Generation"... but tbh EVERY generation is just a bunch of narcissists (when young 'uns)
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/me-generation-time/65054/
Quote
Basically, it's not that people born after 1980 are narcissists, it's that young people are narcissists, and they get over themselves as they get older. It's like doing a study of toddlers and declaring those born since 2010 are Generation Sociopath: Kids These Days Will Pull Your Hair, Pee On Walls, Throw Full Bowls of Cereal Without Even Thinking of the Consequences.
;D
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Spoiler
- attributed to Socrates by Plato
Spoiler
but actually it's from ~ 1907, by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/
(still, the more things change...)
Quote
Generation Y doesn't like to work. Why would they? Never before has a nation produced a bigger group of self important individuals. ... Everyone is important. Everyone is a celebrity.
What would you expect from a generation raised in a school system where everyone got a trophy just for participating. Gen Y doesn't believe in winners or losers. Everyone is a winner.
We know that that attitude leads to everyone being a loser.
-from "Gen X...Your Time is NOW!!!!" (http://leigh-scott.blogspot.ca/2009/03/gen-xyour-time-is-now.html)
Deep Thoughts. (not likely to result in action, but w/e...) (then again, solutions to a "better world" are right now within our collective grasp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4l3pBovB_c))
If I'm a Gen Xer, then my kids must be Gen Yers. But if you look up when the different generation supposedly happened, they're more like Gen Zers. But of course no one really agrees on what the cut-off for one generation is, and when the next generation starts.
I can tell you this, though, both my teens work and go to school and my tweener is working hard at school. Many of the kids that are on my oldest's sports teams work even though they come from families with a comfortable income. To be honest, it just sounds like another old person complaining about how the young people are up to no good. I hate age-ism like that; why is it that we still think we can stereotype and pigeonhole young people. XKCD is on-topic: http://xkcd.com/1227/ (in that it shows older people complaining about the younger people of the day).
The jobs available are changing but that also means you need to plan for a relevant career and also plan to learn as you grow older.
There are a lot of people jobs disappearing in industries where computers and robots replace a lot of people however there are new opportunities emerging as we'll.
Kids like to slack off that hasn't eve changed, they mature over time and get it eventually... Well most of them anyway.
Quote from: Thorin on June 19, 2013, 11:34:59 PM
If I'm a Gen Xer, then my kids must be Gen Yers. But if you look up when the different generation supposedly happened, they're more like Gen Zers. But of course no one really agrees on what the cut-off for one generation is, and when the next generation starts.
my opinion: if you clearly remember (i.e. were around Junior High or High School age) when MuchMusic (aka "MTV Canadian-ified") launched, or can actually remember when all over the place Sony Walkmans were the norm (pre-DISCman), then you are of the "X" generation.
Quote from: Thorin on June 19, 2013, 11:34:59 PM
I can tell you this, though, both my teens work and go to school
You and me both! But I think it comes from solid parenting expectations, honestly (in my case mostly via my wife's strong example their whole lives, only from me the last 3 or so years :P )
I think ANY generation's members can be inspired/motivated to do more than just be a slacker. Just seems the parents of most "Y" members = slackers themselves, or just didn't bother trying too hard to get their kids to get off their collective asses.
There was a time you didn't even have to finish high school to get a job you could have for most of your life, not so much any more.
Then there's the problem of actually getting full time work...
It's not easy for young people to carve a life for themselves without a lot of help.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 20, 2013, 09:10:28 AM
It's not easy for young people to carve a life for themselves without a lot of help.
No wonder they now so rarely take leisurely walks or enjoy a long chat by the fire with their peers. The art of colloquy is dead! :'(
Quote from: Darren Dirt on June 20, 2013, 09:17:06 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 20, 2013, 09:10:28 AM
It's not easy for young people to carve a life for themselves without a lot of help.
No wonder they now so rarely take leisurely walks or enjoy a long chat by the fire with their peers. The art of colloquy is dead! :'(
I don't know about the walking part but replace "fire" with "phone"... ::)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 20, 2013, 09:20:39 AM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on June 20, 2013, 09:17:06 AM
No wonder they now so rarely take leisurely walks or enjoy a long chat by the fire with their peers. The art of colloquy is dead! :'(
I don't know about the walking part but replace "fire" with "phone"... ::)
"FaceTime" != "Face-to-face time" :snooty:
It's still socializing.
Damn kids today with their jitterbug music and telephones...
Actually FaceTime and other video chat services are very much like face-to-face time because you can read each others' non-verbal cues. As opposed to text chat like we engaged in on the BBSes, where there were no non-verbal cues and people often misread the tone of posts.
I dunno about you, Darren, but my kids still spend lots of time face-to-face with their peers at school (32-35 hours a week?), at sports (4-10 hours a week?), and just hanging out (5-20 hours per week?). They then add 3-40 hours of FaceTiming / VideoStarring / SnapChatting. And then there's Facebooking, Kikking, and plain text-and-picture messaging. If anything, I worry about them spending too much time connected with friends and not enough alone time, but then I'm an introvert and I need that alone time (and unlike my wife I could easily spend two weeks in the woods with no one around).
Quote from: Lazybones on June 20, 2013, 09:00:25 AM
Kids like to slack off that hasn't eve changed, they mature over time and get it eventually...
EXACTLY! Now if only the elders would stop complaining about the youngsters while they're maturing. After all, the elders were once the youngsters and were themselves slackers.
Quote from: Thorin on June 20, 2013, 10:35:22 AM
Quote from: Lazybones on June 20, 2013, 09:00:25 AM
Kids like to slack off that hasn't eve changed, they mature over time and get it eventually...
EXACTLY! Now if only the elders would stop complaining about the youngsters while they're maturing. After all, the elders were once the youngsters and were themselves slackers.
A proactive kid can still get a job at McDonalds, learn responsibility, progress to manager or move on to a retail job. Progress and move on from retail funding additional education.. It does take determination and those of us fortunate enough to have been boosted from high-school directly into post secondary without all the financial load had it much easier, however at the expense of maturing...
"How to Write the Worst Possible Column About Millennials" (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/how-to-write-the-worst-possible-column-about-millennials/281129/)
wow, cynical much? (not saying I disagree with a lot of what's said in the above...)
cliffs: a member of the media calling out the media over-hyping millennial-hating. media-on-media verbal violence ;) (against tripe like this (http://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2013/11/04/maybe-pain-will-teach-you-millenials-not-to-vote-for-your-own-serfdom-n1733722/page/full), hey I ain't arguing... I wish there were more Thatcher-like ideas being tossed around (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/08/context-for-margaret-thatcher-s-there-is-no-such-thing-as-society-remarks.html) i.e. "you are part of a community, do what you can when you can to contribute to it, and take from it when you need to, but don't completely unilaterally bleed it dry!")