'Tired of Min-Maxing and Power-Gaming'

[Darren Dirt]

 Mebbe it's the impact of having those who try the pencil-and-paper route after
insane hours spent in MMOs?

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dnd/g...gAndPowerGaming

[Melbosa]

 D&D originally for me is what the guy describes.  I always thought it was about players vs DM monsters and dungeons.  This is back when I was first introduced to the RPG Paper based games.

Then I played the Whitewolf system and Earth Dawn, and since then my focus has changed completely.  Whitewolf and Earth Dawn use discretionary xp based on the story told with a system for the combat more as guidelines than definitives.  Especially the Whitewolf games really encourage the players to put together their imaginations for combat as well as story.

Example of Combat:

In Magick (from Whitewolf) you have realms of magic with ranks.  Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Essense, etc... (may not have the exact ones here... been years since I looked at my books) . Now you face a guy with a gun in the back alley.  You want to hit em with a fireball, so you check your sheet.  Rank 2 in Fire is enough to create a ball of flame roughly 3ft wide.  You also have Rank 1 in Wind which only allows a breaze.  So you put to the group of players, do you think you could do this?  Most say yes, but would be slow with good chance of dodge by guy with gun.

Then the DM pips up and says also you have to realize the paradox effect that could have.  See in the Whitewolf Universe, Science is the believe Magick, and reality is based on Perception.  So by making a fireball out of thin air, you are violating the general belief and cause a paradox effect (which in itself has consequences).

So as a player you as the DM to discribe the alley your in.  He says typical but with pipes on the outside of the buildings for water and gas, at the end of each alley.    Using this knowledge, you decide to throw a knife at the pipe, and just as it passes (doesn't even have to really break the pipe), you cause a cone of fire to emenate from the pipe, engulf the guy in fire, and therefore create what is called Coincidental Magick, which does not violate the paradox rule.

-------

This is what I like, the ability to come up with creative and interesting ways of telling the story and not just the combat.  Then the DM is at his discretion to hand out XP based on how well the story was told.  I always just divide this up equally in the end between all players.

Little Tidbit:  Earth Dawn's publisher went out of business, which is too bad cause I really liked the idea that your weapons/armor/horses/stats could gain fame based on use in battle and stories told of the "sword that fell the dragon", and thereby gain magical properties based on that fame and lore.

[Mr. Analog]

 Powergaming is a problem, but if people are having fun doing it who cares?

It's the DMs job to pick up on this and readjust things, you want more story, I write more story, you want more mind-numbing action you get mind-numbing action. If the DM gets sick of running "numbers" games with pissing-match players he should hand his notes to one of them and go find some realy RP'ers.

It is possible to play D&D without levelling past 1st and have a good time, it just depends on how well players interact and how much work the DM wants to put into the game.

[Shayne]

 The large issue with D&D and the whole powergaming the way i see it is that we all want our "new" abilities.

Why be a mage if you cant use the magic?
Why be a priest if you cant heal a friend/foe?
Why be a druid if you cant tame a pet or grow some trees?

...so you sorta have to blame the rules and the emphasis on level gaining.

As for a good story, im all for that, i re-adjusted my barbarians stats (when i joined the group) just for the ability to participate in decision making (re: the crossing paths thing from the last adventure).

Peer presure and group size has a lot to do with how the adventure unfolds as well.

Ive played both styles, i enjoyed both styles, but in the end, i really want that next skill.

[Thorin]

Mebbe it's the impact of having those who try the pencil-and-paper route after
insane hours spent in MMOs?

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dnd/g...gAndPowerGaming

These sound like the people I affectionately refer to as "video gamers" when we're playing a paper and pencil RPG.

The article makes no reference to what level his players were at.  At high levels, those stats and abilities are certainly attainable without munchkinning; I suspect that they're happening at the middle levels, thus his frustration.

I wonder, do we have this problem in our group?

[Mr. Analog]

 Well, on one hand it's easier for me to plan a dungeon-crawl type stat-battling session than it is to have a puzzle-solving or story-based session with the size of our party. When I see guys relaxing deep into the ether with their eyes closed when other party members are conversing with NPCs it makes my arm itchy for the wandering monster table, dig?

I try to be flexible and keep both kinds of players happy, and with luck I'll be able to figure out a better way of integrating the two so that they fit more seemlessly into our adventures. Hopefully the ninja^H^H^H^H^Hbandit castle will provide fun for everyone...

[Darren Dirt]

 I liked seeing the responses others gave to that guy's original posting - they were like saying he had struck a chord, in a way, but to have hope.

*sits in the corner astonished at the well-articulated responses to my initial posting seen here as well*

[Bryan]

 I used to enjoy the whitewolf world as well. My favorite rpg goes to Elfquest, I enjoyed that one so much for the reason of the reality part of it. If you got an arrow in the leg, chances are you are useless and cant get up, slashed across the chest deep enough you have a good chance of passing out, wasnt much of a fan of the whole you have a chance with every member of the opposite sex that you meet of finding your soulmate and you two are stuck with each other to the bitter end. I suppose you could, as the gm, ignore that part of the game also.

But for the leveling part of the whole game revolves around using all of your skills to better your person, instead of killing creatures for exp. dont get me wrong D&D is the best world by far. but i havent played past ad&d 2.0 i think.

[Tonnica]

 I've played in both a (roleplaying) game where 99% of the focus was on battle and aquiring new skills and a game where skills and battle were just a foil for bringing out more character development. Power gaming showed up in both of these in varying degrees and forms.

It can begin with something as innoculous as healthy competitive spirit, a lucky roll that leads to the particularly cool and thorough defeat of a villain, or even just discovering a particularly exploitable skill combo. Sure, it can be fun crushing monsters to dust (then burning down the dust) but it comes down to induvidual players to make the judgement call of "if we just defeated them in one fell swoop that'd be boring".

I know of no solution to power gaming, and no balm to ease it either (outside of smacks upside the head). There's few things that actually piss me off in a game than another player who decides to step on my toes by being a skills hog. Bitching aside, my public service announcement is: don't go about regularly pre-empting people of the chance to use a skill pertinent to their character just because you happen to have it in your skills list.