a unique perspective on Sid Meier's "Civ" series of games...

[Darren Dirt]

http://www.strike-the-root.com/52/hobbs/hobbs1.html

makes you think about what exactly is the meaning of that word, what is real "civilization"...

[Thorin]

That's right, we don't know the meaning of the word "civilization".  Oh wait, we do: http://www.google.ca/search?q=define%3Acivilization.  Funny how when a word is defined, we know what it's meaning is.

The linked article doesn't question the meaning of the word "civilization", it questions whether a *game named Civilization* plays out in a way that matches that meaning.  It then goes on to suggest that government as it exists today in Canada, the US, and other such Western democracies really are just religions that are instilled in us at a very early age.  Of course, when you determine the meaning of "religion" (http://www.google.ca/search?q=define%3Areligion) you find that generally it includes the concept of a supernatural being, and I don't see the concept of a supernatural being in the government system we've all been taught to adhere to.

So at most, really, the linked article is whining that we're all taught the same thing in school instead of being allowed to spontaneously glob into blobs of knowledge.

[Mr. Analog]

The article, to me anyway, seemed like an excuse for someone to expunge their socio-political beliefs by using a video game comparison as a hook. But that's neither here nor there. Comparing video games to anything in real life is ridiculous. I mean sure the latest iteration of NFL from EA might have all the rosters, rules and mechanics of the sport but it doesn't have all the subtleties that surround the reality of Pro-Football (low fan turnouts, drug scandals, contract disputes, player injuries or arrests, different trainers, problems with team morale, etc, etc, etc).

:-/

[Modified to reflect reality, thanks Shayne!]

[Shayne]

...low fan turnouts...

I agree with everything accept that   Every single NFL game is sold out, and has been for years.  The current waiting list for seasons tickets to the packers is over 60,000 long.

[Thorin]

...low fan turnouts...

Every single NFL game is sold out, and has been for years.  The current waiting list for seasons tickets to the packers is over 60,000 long.

Just because the announcer says the game is sold out doesn't mean it really is.  For instance: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/sfl-spattendance26sep26,0,7322073.story?coll=sfla-sports-marlins.  To boot, how can a sell-out be 69,383 tickets sold one week, and 69,704 sold the next week?  Do the stadiums suddenly grow new seats?  This has always irked me.

[Shayne]

Very true, standing room only?  Ive been to a few Oilers games like that where the numbers are different by a couple hundred

-- edit:

All games of the NFL schedule for this Sunday and Monday (Week 6) have sold out in advance of the local TV blackout deadline, enabling every game to be televised in the home-team market for an unprecedented sixth week in one season.

Every game this season has been sold out at least 72 hours in advance and televised locally.

It will be the 19th time since the NFL blackout policy took effect in 1973 that blackouts have been lifted for all games on a single weekend. The 19 times have been once in 1998; three times in 2000; once in 2001; four times in 2002 and 2005; and six times this season.

The NFL blackout policy states that games sold out 72 hours prior to kickoff can be televised in the home city.

Source: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9723964

Selling out, but not as often as I thought, but I blame the Cardinals

[Darren Dirt]

keep in the mind, the article author is a self-proclaimed gamer who loves the Civ series... He wasn't really criticizing the game for not being "realistic", but I think its limitations reminded him that most people only have one idea of what "civilization", or more actually means. And so he was suggesting people perhaps question their own idea of what it, or more particularly, "progress", means to them. And why. IMHO.

Oh, and thanks for the dictionary link d00d.

[Mr. Analog]

...low fan turnouts...

I agree with everything accept that   Every single NFL game is sold out, and has been for years.  The current waiting list for seasons tickets to the packers is over 60,000 long.

My mistake, I guess I was thinking of CFL lol

[Mr. Analog]

Oh, and thanks for the dictionary link d00d.

I believe you asked:

makes you think about what exactly is the meaning of that word, what is real "civilization"

Q.E.D.

[Darren Dirt]

...sometimes one's "meaning" of a word is different than that found in a dictionary. Sometimes context alters the definition, or one's own filters and conditioning and lack of experience with alternative viewpoints. That, I believe, is at the root of what the article's author was talking about.


Oh, btw... Thorin or anyone else who has an opinion...

I don't see the concept of a supernatural being in the government system we've all been taught to adhere to.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supernatural
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

So if a political entity known as a "state" (since "government" is just real living breathing people acting on behalf of said "state") is not "supernatural" then it must be something "natural". Correct?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/natural
1. Present in or produced by nature.
4a. Not acquired; inherent.

(presumably, as opposed to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/artificial -- "1. Made by humans; produced rather than natural [in origin].")


Seriously asking.



- - -

PS: Google "define:" links for more diversity in the definition pool: supernatural , natural , artificial
IMHO, any system conceived by people to control other people is not natural and is therefore artificial... by "definition".

[Mr. Analog]

Darren,

Arguing semantics is not the point you had intended, is it? The article as I read it was someone trying to correlate their own views about historical socio-politics between a series of games and the real world, right? Let's try to stay focused then.

I assert that a comparison between the extremely limited confines of a video game and real life is futile (at any level). I further assert that the author of this article is using the game as counterpoint to his own rather funny ideas about historical geopolitics.

If you disagree with this, that's fine, say so and explain why I'm wrong please.

[Thorin]

...sometimes one's "meaning" of a word is different than that found in a dictionary. Sometimes context alters the definition, or one's own filters and conditioning and lack of experience with alternative viewpoints.

Okay, you *cannot* have a serious discussion nor debate if you cannot come to a common understanding of *at least* the words used in that discussion or debate.  If you want to re-define what a word means, then *state the new definition for all to understand*.  Otherwise you're just trolling.

...sometimes one's "meaning" of a word is different than that found in a dictionary. Sometimes context alters the definition, or one's own filters and conditioning and lack of experience with alternative viewpoints. That, I believe, is at the root of what the article's author was talking about.

Nowhere in the article does the author indicate anything in the way of redefining any words so that their meaning would be altered from what's found in the dictionary.  The article clearly introduces the concept that government as we experience it in the Western world today is a form of religion:

The factor that unites a people should have a name.  Perhaps the best term for this, get ready . . . is religion.  This may seem odd and incompatible with the reality of multi-cultural cooperation, but there is a type of religion that makes the reality instead of the Plato?s cave type perception.  Are the American Baptists and American Mormons part of the same, or hostile religions?  They seem to be able to go to war together to kill the Assyrian Orthodox Christian women and children in   Iraq   and be proud of it as justified collateral damage.  In truth, their religion is not Baptist or Mormon, but American.   

Every state is a religion.  Generally we call this worship of state civic religion, with its flags, anthems, pledges of allegiance, rituals, and holidays.  (Notice the etymological origin from holy day.)  States often allow freedom of religion, but by propaganda, forced schooling/brainwashing, and threats to dissenters, it instills the civic religion into the core of every approved religion.  You no longer have to believe that the state or king is God, only the instrument of God to be obeyed and the legitimate maker of laws of right and wrong.

Everything before these two paragraphs leads up to the central concept couched in this essay.  Everything after these two paragraphs describes how the game would be different if we accept this concept as real, and how it would better model real world examples.

This is what I took to be the central premise of the article, this concept that government is a form of religion brainwashed into us at a young age.  If this concept were not introduced, the entire article would have been nonsensical, whereas if all of the text covering the Sid Meier games were removed the article would still contain it's central point.  The text describing how the author would like to change the Sid Meier games serves the purpose of making the newly-introduced concept seem less foreign.

Oh, btw... Thorin or anyone else who has an opinion...

I don't see the concept of a supernatural being in the government system we've all been taught to adhere to.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supernatural
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

So if a political entity known as a "state" (since "government" is just real living breathing people acting on behalf of said "state") is not "supernatural" then it must be something "natural". Correct?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/natural
1. Present in or produced by nature.
4a. Not acquired; inherent.

(presumably, as opposed to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/artificial -- "1. Made by humans; produced rather than natural [in origin].")

Seriously asking.

- - -

PS: Google "define:" links for more diversity in the definition pool: supernatural , natural , artificial
IMHO, any system conceived by people to control other people is not natural and is therefore artificial... by "definition".

No, just because something is not supernatural does not mean it's automatically natural.  It can still be artificial, as you point out.  In fact, I agree with you that both state and government are artificial creations.

Nevertheless, I do not believe government is supernatural, nor that it is equivalent to a religion as "religion" is commonly defined.