Osama bin Laden is Dead

[Lazybones]

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/03/white-house-modifies.html

According to the statements in the link no CURRENT REAL death photo has been released... Thus those floating around are just old hoax photos the media dug up again.

[Thorin]

It may be weird to you and me, but in the Middle East walled-off compounds like this aren't entirely unusual.  Maybe not everyone has enough money to have one this big, but many houses have walls around them to give the occupants privacy and contain children and animals.  Same as why most houses here have six or seven foot fences around their backyards.  We might not put walled areas on the tops of our houses, though...

[Mr. Analog]

Even if real photos are published there would still be those claiming they were faked.

At this point I'm most interested in two things:
-What's going to happen to his network of terrorists
-How much information recovered from his terror fort is going to be useful

[Darren Dirt]

What are sites like infowars.com trying to achieve when they post stories that question the mainstream media or government reports?

I'm not saying the mainstream media is particularly believable, or even that government reports are full of truth, but if you're going to question them then you shouldn't blindly accept non-traditional news sources either just because they're speaking contrary to said government reports.  And from the tone of your posts in this thread, it appears that you have done so.

First, I don't know and don't pretend to know what is the motive behind the "alternative" voices on the internet, or on the radio, or in the newspaper, or at the bus stop.

Second, I do not blindly accept a contrary point of view just because it is contrary to mainstream. Being an unquestioning anti-authoritarian/anarchist is just as dangerous as being an unquestioning "statist" (as some people call those who ractically worship at the feet of governmental figures). So sorry that I have given that impression.


I guess this major event, the reaction of the public (at least what we see in the MSM) saddens me, nay sickens me, to see people blindly accepting government word and actually dancing in the streets celebrating the killing of someone, of whom there are so many varied opinions re. his history/existence/status.




Go with me here:

Every few hours the last few days, on the net I have found someone else, on their own, questioning the Official Story, with their unique voice and distinct perspective.

They're all saying the same basic thing, with different words, and from very different angles (i.e. liberal and conservative, conspiracy nut and law-abiding police-compliant jury-serving citizen)...

Here's one of the best I've seen -- complete with a objection-proof up front "I don't normally question things like this" disclaimer...


http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/05/sorry-but-i-dont-believe-this.html

not a political blog, not a conspiracy website.

Just someone who knows when something just doesn't seem... "right". And is willing to openly point it out.

Stuff like this makes me feel happy about the future of this world, more and more people are not just blindly going along for the ride, but are actually capable of CRITICAL THINKING, i.e. willing to ask, and consider the answer to, the simple question "does what I have been told MAKE SENSE?"

When the Bolivian Army killed Che Guevara in October 1967, they displayed his body as proof that he was indeed dead. The Bolivians in fact staged the body so that ordinary people -- and the world's journalists -- could get a good view of the corpse, up close and personal.

My readers know I don't truck in conspiracy theories. I believe Elvis is dead, I believe Paul never died, I believe 9/11 was a terrorist incident, and I believe Neil Armstrong did in fact land on the moon.

But I don't believe Osama Bin Laden was killed over the weekend.

Just to be clear, I do not believe Bin Laden is still alive. I believe what a lot of intelligence analysts have been privately saying for a long time now: That Bin Laden died of kidney failure in December 2001, and that he was buried by his followers in an unmarked grave in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Bizarre: That the mastermind of the most egregious terrorist attack in U.S. history -- the worst mass killing of American citizens on U.S. soil since the Civil War, as I understand it -- was treated so la-di-da by the American defense and intelligence communities.

Yet after 2003, for the next eight years, the American military offered up a mere token effort to find him "dead or alive". An attitude that makes absolutely no sense at all --

-- unless you already know that the man is dead, and that his body will likely never be found.

supposedly following Islamic tradition that the dead must be buried within 24 hours, Osama Bin Laden was given a hurry-up burial at sea -- which explicitly goes against Islamic tradition.

Other Muslims killed by the Americans and their allies were not buried immediately. For instance, the sons of Saddam Hussein. Their corpses were held for a while, in order to confirm that they were indeed the intended targets.

But Osama Bin Laden? Killed and buried at sea in record time -- even though there hadn't been a confirmed sighting of him in something like eleven years.

In fact aside from the word of the American defense and intelligence establishment, there hasn't been a shred of evidence that they did in fact kill him.

All we have is the official word of the American defense and intelligence establishments.

Mm-hmm. Because they've always been so trustworthy.

To insist: I do not for a second doubt that he is indeed dead. I just don't believe that he was killed this past weekend. I believe that he died quite some time ago -- years ago, in fact.

I don't really see how this assassination is a "victory". President Obama claims "Justice has been done" -- but that's simply not true.

Justice would have been served if he had been captured, flown to New York, and tried in a (civilian) court for the events of 9/11.

Extra-judicial assassination is not "justice" -- it's merely revenge.

The sad thing is, we'll probably never know the truth -- which is a pity. Had Bin Laden been shown to the world's press -- just like the Bolivian Army did with Che Guevara -- there would be no doubts. Because when the Bolivian Army showed off Che Guevara's corpse, there were international cries of outrage at the "brutality" of parading his corpse around for all to see.

But not even that perennial fantasist Fidel Castro could deny the truth that El Che was indeed dead.

With Osama Bin Laden? We'll never be really sure.

^ one comment summed it up nicely:

Sunday morning the mainstream media were all skeptical about Qaddafi's son and grandkids being killed in a NATO airstrike because no bodies were produced.

Osama "killed" twelve hours later, no body, and no skepticism. Nice.

[Thorin]

Make sure to try and avoid the new malware that uses Osama's death as a lure to get you to click a link that will install the malware:

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-scams-and-viruses-spread-across-the-web/238379/

[Mr. Analog]

So the main sticking point, and basis of this differing point of view as I understand it, is that the body was buried at sea and not retained?

All the information we have at this point in time heavily suggests the identity:
-Whoever he was he was important, hiding in a low-profile heavily fortified mansion
-Osama bin Laden's closest relatives were all within that compound
-This person had a retinue of armed bodyguards
-Various "bin Laden sightings" within Pakistan on and off for at least 5 years

We must take on faith that the US Military is capable of correctly identifying a target and validating after death that it was indeed who they thought it was, that said we have no reason not to trust this information. (Motive?)

Again, as it's been said before on these forums with extraordinary claims come extraordinary proof. So far the proof for the counterargument is in absentia which works both ways: if the man killed was not bin Laden, where is his body (alive or otherwise) now?

I understand where you are coming from Darren, but linking to well known talk radio conspiracy theorist Alex Jones' website sets off the "O Rly?" alarms in most peoples heads (just saying).

[Darren Dirt]

sorry I linked to well-known conspiracy folks.

so pretend it's someone else who links to this non-conspiracy article:
http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/05/sorry-but-i-dont-believe-this.html


^ the questions this "average Joe" raises are what I really am trying to focus on. It's not about the skeptics making extraordinary claims (i.e. IT WASN'T OBL). It's about looking at the official story where THEY make an extraordinary claim -- that it WAS him, but they fast-tracked his corpse's disappearance.


I say extraordinary cuz the ordinary thing would be to let the public confirm, the way they did with Che.

Why the quick "burial at sea"? Why not let the public have closure, by at least having outside 3rd parties observe and confirm, the way they did with Che? And with the claim of quick burial according to Muslim custom, then why such a stark contrast vs. Saddam's sons' corpses? And why did the mansion get burned to the ground? Why did evidence not get retained for investigation, and at least for public scrutiny/convincing?

[Mr. Analog]

I question the impartiality of that blogger thanks to remarks like this:

All we have is the official word of the American defense and intelligence establishments.

Mm-hmm. Because they've always been so trustworthy.

But anyway, getting off track, show me bin Laden's body if he died in 2003 or show me where he's living if he is still alive.

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit

[Tom]

Why the quick "burial at sea"?

The best explanation I've heard so far was so his burial site didn't become a target.

[Mr. Analog]

Why the quick "burial at sea"?

The best explanation I've heard so far was so his burial site didn't become a target.

The official explanation that I read last was sort of two part:
-The US didn't want to have to deal with custody issues with the remains
-They didn't want extremists using the remains for symbolic purposes

Dumping at sea is certainly the least hassle option, I think it's the same logic behind the Russian decision to cremate Hitler when they found the bunker.

[Mr. Analog]

And now for something completely different...