PEEK and POKE, PLOT and PRINT

[Darren Dirt]

Based on the first post in this thread:

Basic instinct: how we used to code -- In praise of Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code


retro reminiscing. 

I didn't realize you were actually referring to the _comments_ on the article rather than the article itself, so thanks for that clarification.  Maybe say that explicitly next time, though.

As a rule I tend not to read all the comments as there is so much fluff compared to useful comments and there are so many comments on the internet that I could never read them all in my lifetime.

To clarify my clarifying... I actually posted the thread originally upon finding the article, and then only afterwards realized how awesome the comments were, i.e. Trip Down Memory Lane for many of us RW'ers.

I think a later post ITT i mentioned the comments... only in hindsight would I say they are the greater value of the article, compared to its actual contents.

[Darren Dirt]

There are piles of flash games still out there that people love and many of those have very simple code.

Yay, EWD would be glad.

"the Romans have taught us "Simplex Veri Sigillum" ? that is: simplicity is the hallmark of truth? we should know better, but complexity continues to have a morbid attraction."
- Edsger W. Dijkstra (1984,
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD898.html )

[Mr. Analog]

Uhh, HTML + Javascript is coding, actually

http://jquery.com/

http://yuilibrary.com/

http://prototypejs.org/

http://www.sencha.com/products/extjs/

Great way to learn? Get on JS Bin with someone experienced and pair up:
http://jsbin.com/

Anyway, I think now is a much better time to learn how to code than ever (because Google), the availability of computers and free frameworks to play with also help. The one thing I'm sure has changed is the "wow" factor of it, making words appear on a screen doesn't exactly excite kids the same way it did 30 odd years ago LOL

Mind you today there are kids playing with robotics in the form of Lego, and that's cool with a capital Fonzie.

[Darren Dirt]

Uhh, HTML + Javascript is coding, actually

Duh @ your Uhh ... but it's not exactly "entry level simplicity and instant WOW" is it?


1. which is more intimidating to a child/adolescent who is driven by a "hey I want to learn to program"...

a) http://jsbin.com/welcome/1/edit

b)


2. bonus question: and which is more likely to get the viewer thinking (and acting on!) "I think I can guess what happens if I change this part..." <-- that's the thing that got me hooked into this damn beautiful industry (as well as many other Compute! or INPUT magazine readers)

[Mr. Analog]

As we're no longer children we aren't capable of answering that question

I can remember sitting at the old C64 prompt and not knowing where to even get started, it wasn't until I got help that things opened up.

So yeah, if I was given the choice of sitting at a prompt with no help or collaboratively coding with someone else I'd pick the latter...

[Thorin]

1.b. looks (functionally) like HTML to me, which for your bonus question has the same "wonder what happens if I change this" factor.

And I'm pretty sure that it takes a certain personality to want to learn code, whether it was spaghetti BASIC or nice new jQuery.

[Darren Dirt]

As we're no longer children we aren't capable of answering that question

I can remember sitting at the old C64 prompt and not knowing where to even get started, it wasn't until I got help that things opened up.

So yeah, if I was given the choice of sitting at a prompt with no help or collaboratively coding with someone else I'd pick the latter...

That's why I picked the Apple ][ prompt -- instead of the C64 "blank page". Obviously anything needs help/manuals to tell the budding developer how to do stuff. But the Apple ][ prompt and similar would have it right in your face the simple code and its simple and immediate result --> pique the curiosity of a young 'un, a few key presses and the computer TALKS to you... now what? (old school generation would be excited by that, anyway -- see my lament ala "Halo in an afternoon" below).

1.b. looks (functionally) like HTML to me, which for your bonus question has the same "wonder what happens if I change this" factor.

Sure, now. But what about to a nine year old who has not ever looked at source code of any kind? And which would they feel more welcome to modify and have a good guess what the result woudl be?

I guess my point isn't very clear -- the shallow learning curve of the 1980s (and early 1990s) is no longer, as pointed out ITT the bar is higher for a "WOW" response, which means even if someone gives their kid a C64 with BASIC it is less likely to be attractive to them unless they can build Halo or similar in an afternoon. #sad #illgetoverit #threadkindadyinganyway

[Mr. Analog]

I dunno, this reminds me of a question posted on /. about how to get someone interested in Star Trek

You can lead a horse to water and all that jazz...

[Thorin]

1.b. looks (functionally) like HTML to me, which for your bonus question has the same "wonder what happens if I change this" factor.

Sure, now. But what about to a nine year old who has not ever looked at source code of any kind? And which would they feel more welcome to modify and have a good guess what the result woudl be?

I guess my point isn't very clear -- the shallow learning curve of the 1980s (and early 1990s) is no longer, as pointed out ITT the bar is higher for a "WOW" response, which means even if someone gives their kid a C64 with BASIC it is less likely to be attractive to them unless they can build Halo or similar in an afternoon. #sad #illgetoverit #threadkindadyinganyway

Well I can answer that one from experience - I think my son was ten when he wanted to try HTML.  I showed him the absolute basics (tags begin with < and end with >, further help can be found on w3schools.org), and he spent hours trying out different things, including image manipulation.  He was quite proud of what he'd accomplished and did show it to his friends.  They were as impressed as my friends were with my first BASIC program - that is, they weren't wowed, mostly because neither his friends now nor my friends back then really knew how much work it was to make something look good.

I think this thread's at a point where you've decided your opinion and won't sway from it; if that's the case, then the thread is probably dying, as it seems the rest of us don't agree with your opinion on whether the good old days were better or not.

Oh, and my son isn't necessarily interested in programming now but he's certainly into computers and at times the details of computers.

[Darren Dirt]

Great way to learn? Get on JS Bin with someone experienced and pair up:
http://jsbin.com/

I found a tool today that is kinda similar in usefulness/quickness to the above, let's you edit/test various "kinds" of code really easily (i.e. instant results)
http://jsfiddle.net/

JsFiddle is a playground for web developers, a tool which may be used in many ways. One can use it as an online editor for snippets build from HTML, CSS and JavaScript. The code can then be shared with others, embedded on a blog, etc. Using this approach, JavaScript developers can very easily isolate bugs. We aim to support all actively developed frameworks - it helps with testing compatibility.

Add that to your list of handy coding tools, right next to whatever web-based RegExp Tester you prefer.

[Thorin]

RegExes are _hell_ to maintain.

JSFiddle's pretty cool, though

[Darren Dirt]

RegExes are _hell_ to maintain.

hence the importance to take advantage of stuff you find with this Google search...
http://www.google.com/search?q=web-based+RegExp+Tester