Understanding Euromaidan

[Thorin]

So Putin has admitted that the well-trained and well-armed men in Crimea, who did not wear insignia identifying their country of origin, were in fact Russian soldiers: http://www.novinite.com/articles/159921/Putin+Admits+%E2%80%9CLittle+Green+Men%E2%80%9D+in+Crimea+Were+Russian+Troops.

Although they did not identify themselves as Russian soldiers, it was clear from their garb and equipment that they were armed combatants part of a general force, therefore they were technically speaking still within the rules of article 4 of the Geneva Conventions: http://www.ibtimes.com/russias-use-unmarked-troops-simferopol-crimea-shady-not-illegal-1559425.  Of course, it cast serious doubt on whether anything Putin says is true.

Now he's stating that those same well-trained and well-armed men in eastern Ukraine are local self-defense forces: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F05e1d8ca-c57a-11e3-a7d4-00144feabdc0.html&ei=Kj5QU56QEceq2QWR64DYDw&usg=AFQjCNElOWTMzf3ppIWlTLrwGchssGyl_A&sig2=FW-we0q87Wb2_c96tPnGhw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.b2I.  How likely is it that he's lying?

[Tom]

There's evidence (That I can't find at the moment) that says that a good number of the people holding local city offices are actually Russian's as well. I read an article that talked to one of them, and he admited to being Russian and doing it "For my russian brothers!".

Yuh.

Nothing putin says here can be taken seriously.

[Thorin]

A foreign national being voted into office or accepting a job working for the city is one thing.  Sending armed troops into another country with the intent of taking things away from that country but then denying that you're doing so, well, that's quite another.  It's becoming more and more believable that the Spetznaz actually fomented the original unrest last November to try and provoke civil unrest that Russia could then swoop in and stop, invading Ukraine under the auspice of "seeking peace".

Meanwhile, Chinese day labourers and immigrants have been steadily increasing in Russia's Far East, helping said area to expand and grow.  However, the day will come when the Chinese send in their troops to protect their citizens' right to a "fair referendum on splitting from Russia and joining their country".

[Tom]

A foreign national being voted into office or accepting a job working for the city is one thing.  Sending armed troops into another country with the intent of taking things away from that country but then denying that you're doing so, well, that's quite another.

So, it wasn't that the foreign national took a job or was voted into office.. Its foreign nationals and local extremists walking into the city offices and taking them at gun point. Then trying to put through votes to either succeed, or start a referendum to federalize. aka: most citizens aren't actually involved in it, and at most might be for federalizing, but thats about it.

  It's becoming more and more believable that the Spetznaz actually fomented the original unrest last November to try and provoke civil unrest that Russia could then swoop in and stop, invading Ukraine under the auspice of "seeking peace".

Both sides have been trying to mess with things.

The EU, NATO and the US have been pushing for major changes. The original EU deal would have bankrupted Ukraine... A lot of the Maidan stuff AFTER it started was seeded by the US. The new temporary government that clearly wishes it wasnt temporary was put into place by the US for the most part. And note, that those people are not average citizens, they are members of an extremist party that is not above/beneath using violence to get their way, and there may be some evidence that they themselves hired the gunmen to shoot at the protesters to rile things up.

It's a giant cluster@%&#. Everyone wants the oil and resources and noone gives a @%&# about Ukraine or its people. Bunch of children fighting over a country as if its a toy.

[Tom]

I say russia has a reason to be a bit nervous:



The US and NATO have essentially surrounded them completely.

[Thorin]

I think that map need to be fact-checked - I don't remember there being a US or NATO base in Kazakhstan or Somalia, just off the hop.  Also, I wonder where the Russian bases are located?  They do still operate bases in other countries, like the one in Sevastopol - wait, scratch that, they decided to just annex the land so it wouldn't be a foreign base.

[Tom]

I think any country that is a NATO partner and has its own bases counts as having a nato base

you can't deny that the us has done a lot to fence in countries it sees as a threat, even though they'd probably be less of a treat if we didn't fence them in (caged animal syndrome?)

[Mr. Analog]

Cat's out of the bag now:

Putin reveals secrets of Russia's Crimea takeover plot
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226

[Thorin]

I'm surprised that he admitted it, rather than maintaining the lie, because I'm sure other world leaders will trust him even less now when he vehemently denies what is directly before him.

But then we all knew who the little green men were, and we all know the Russian soldiers fighting in eastern Ukraine (with heavy weaponry like tanks and howitzers) are not "on leave".

It's just too bad that there's so much name-calling and propaganda being used to try and win the war in Ukraine.  The original Euromaidan protesters, who were peaceful and unarmed and just wanted the government to come through on its promises to take steps to join the European Union, have now been re-cast in the Russian media as fascists and bigots and neo-nazis and any other names the Russians can call them.  And the original protesters were none of these.  The armed militias that were encouraged to join the fight since the east Ukrainian troubles began may well be, though.

[Thorin]

There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house.  Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".

[Mr. Analog]

There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house.  Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".

YUP! I could have sworn I posted something like this before, and they are EVERYWHERE, and usually easy to spot (like corporate astroturfers)

The sad thing are the poor saps who get trolled by this (legit mad because of the paid-for nonsense) and waste their time writing huge replies to what is basically a bot with a wallet WITH STOCK ANSWERS DESIGNED TO TROLL FURTHER

it's quite the racket

[Darren Dirt]

There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house.  Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".

YUP! I could have sworn I posted something like this before, and they are EVERYWHERE, and usually easy to spot (like corporate astroturfers)

The sad thing are the poor saps who get trolled by this (legit mad because of the paid-for nonsense) and waste their time writing huge replies to what is basically a bot with a wallet WITH STOCK ANSWERS DESIGNED TO TROLL FURTHER

it's quite the racket

Ain't just Rushin' trolls either.

Comment, from the above Guardian article:
"All major countries have a troll army including the US. -- http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks "

As reported by The Guardian.

[Mr. Analog]

It's like spies, every team has one and they suck

[Darren Dirt]

It's like spies, every team has one and they suck

pro-tip: If you're gonna make a Team Fortress 2 reference, at least capitalize "Spies" (it took me a second to get it)

[Mr. Analog]

It's like spies, every team has one and they suck

pro-tip: If you're gonna make a Team Fortress 2 reference, at least capitalize "Spies" (it took me a second to get it)

The metaphor works for both