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XBox One is NOT backwards compatible (despite stories emerging today)

Started by Mr. Analog, June 16, 2015, 09:11:26 AM

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Mr. Analog

They are offering a redemption program where you can get a digital download of an XBox 360 game that you already own (expires end of this year). A lot of articles out there are implying backward compatibility is supported but that is simply not true.

FWIW: If the XBone was truly backward compatible I might have considered it last year when I had to replace my dead 360
By Grabthar's Hammer

Melbosa

Agreed but still a kewl program for those of us with 360 games they want on XBone.
Sometimes I Think Before I Type... Sometimes!

Lazybones

Still haven't played mass effect 3,  still new and sitting in its package.

Damn that ME2 DLC I wanted to complete before moving my character over.

Mr. Analog

They will be rolling out support for a few games at a time starting this fall.
By Grabthar's Hammer

Melbosa

Wonder if your copy will still work on a 360 if you redeem it on XBone.
Sometimes I Think Before I Type... Sometimes!

Mr. Analog

Quote from: Melbosa on June 16, 2015, 10:23:21 AM
Wonder if your copy will still work on a 360 if you redeem it on XBone.


Given you don't need activation of any kind on the 360 I'll say yes
By Grabthar's Hammer

Thorin

Did they happen to explain what's different that causes it to not be compatible?  Is it all software-based?
Prayin' for a 20!

gcc thorin.c -pedantic -o Thorin
compile successful

Melbosa

Neither Sony nor Microsoft have really said the definitive "why" it can't be done, just citing things like hardware and software differences.
Sometimes I Think Before I Type... Sometimes!

Mr. Analog

Quote from: Thorin on June 16, 2015, 11:16:58 AM
Did they happen to explain what's different that causes it to not be compatible?  Is it all software-based?


There are two ways to handle backward compatibility:

1. Put the last gen hardware IN the next gen hardware.
This is expensive as you are shipping 2 consoles in one, and given how much of a loss MS has taken on hardware sales since the beginning it's not surprising that they'd go the cheapest possible route

2. Make a really good emulator.
The problem with this is making a really good emulator in the first place and then trying to hide it so that pirates don't get their hands on it and port it to PC

Both are costly and neither really push the movement of people to a new console with new titles. It's kind of like Nintendo and their really hard to transfer virtual console stuff. So I can understand why most companies don't bother but as a game player I don't want to have multiple devices hooked up just to play different generations of games. That there is a Wii built into the Wii-U was actually a big selling point for me and got me into Wii-U games.
By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

What I had assumed was that it is neither hardware or a good emulator. An emulator would just be too slow.

I'm betting its a porting layer, which makes 360 games easier to port over. Mostly just a recompile, and the devs can release 360 games for the xbone.
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

It's software emulation for sure, that's why they're releasing games in blocks. I'm sure some games may never be released because the emulation requirements might be higher than the hardware is capable of.
By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

Emulation is just too much for the xbone. the 360 hardware is just too powerful to properly emulate on an xbone imo. It makes even more sense to be a porting layer that takes a bit of time to port over a game, where it can actually run at closer to full speed. They'd have to re-certify games as well, so that take additional time and probably end up with batches of games coming out.
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

Yeah but that's how they're doing it so I don't know what to tell you :-)

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 16, 2015, 12:27:16 PM
Yeah but that's how they're doing it so I don't know what to tell you :-)
Where did you get that information, and where is the specs for it? you can conceivably call a porting layer a "software emulator" if you really wanted to *cough*wine*cough*. It wouldn't be technically (the best kind of) correct, but hey, people do silly things all the time.

High end pcs still have problems with consoles older than the 360. the Xbone is a low end PC. I can't imagine how it can possibly emulate the 360 in any kind of a decent way.
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

From The Verge:

QuoteBehind the scenes, Microsoft has built an Xbox 360 emulator that runs on the Xbox One to get these games working, and it?s easy to spot. When you first launch an Xbox 360 game on the Xbox One it starts a setup process that includes the Xbox 360 boot up animation and even the Xbox Live prompt to note you?ve signed in. It?s a little surreal, but there?s a virtual Xbox 360 running on my Xbox One now.


http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/16/8788391/theres-an-xbox-360-inside-my-xbox-one

It should help that the 360 architecture is over 10 years old
By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 16, 2015, 12:43:51 PM
From The Verge:

QuoteBehind the scenes, Microsoft has built an Xbox 360 emulator that runs on the Xbox One to get these games working, and it?s easy to spot. When you first launch an Xbox 360 game on the Xbox One it starts a setup process that includes the Xbox 360 boot up animation and even the Xbox Live prompt to note you?ve signed in. It?s a little surreal, but there?s a virtual Xbox 360 running on my Xbox One now.


http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/16/8788391/theres-an-xbox-360-inside-my-xbox-one

It should help that the 360 architecture is over 10 years old
Yes, and older consoles are even older :P
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 16, 2015, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 12:49:53 PM
Yes, and older consoles are even older :P


To quote Vinesauce Vinny: "WHAT?"


Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 12:33:32 PM
High end pcs still have problems with consoles older than the 360. the Xbone is a low end PC. I can't imagine how it can possibly emulate the 360 in any kind of a decent way.
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 12:54:12 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on June 16, 2015, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 12:49:53 PM
Yes, and older consoles are even older :P


To quote Vinesauce Vinny: "WHAT?"


Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 12:33:32 PM
High end pcs still have problems with consoles older than the 360. the Xbone is a low end PC. I can't imagine how it can possibly emulate the 360 in any kind of a decent way.



Who knows what kind of mumbo majick they're using to make it happen. Like I said earlier I'm sure there will be a lot of games that just won't work well with it (if at all.)

Now if they had put a 360 on the board this wouldn't have been an issue but I doubt Microsoft was really thinking about footing the bill to give an upgrade path for people with existing libraries of games. The XBone launch price was already fairly steep
By Grabthar's Hammer

Tom

I just think trying to emulate that rather powerful triple core PowerPC part with a quad core low end AMD APU is going to be challenging to do in real time. You can pass the gpu calls through with a virtualization/pass-through layer (like virtualbox does with OpenGL), but trying to fully emulate the 360 cpu on the APU in the xbone seems to me to be impossible to do in real time. I still hear about performance issues with Game Cube emulators, let alone a 360. And IIRC, any attempts at a Wii emulator seems to be stuck at major performance issues as well. Modern PC hardware just isn't fast enough yet.

I just find a Wine like layer which includes the old 360 environment much more likely.
<Zapata Prime> I smell Stanley... And he smells good!!!

Mr. Analog

The initial list of compatible games:

?A Kingdom for Keflings
?A World of Keflings
?Alien Hominid HD
?Banjo-Kazooie
?Banjo-Tooie
?BattleBlock Theater
?Defense Grid
?Geometry Wars Evolved
?Hexic HD
?Jetpac Refuelled
?Kameo
?Mass Effect
?N+
?Perfect Dark
?Perfect Dark Zero
?Super Meat Boy
?Toy Soldiers
?Toy Soldiers: Cold War
?Viva Pi?ata
?Viva Pi?ata: TIP
?Zuma
By Grabthar's Hammer

Mr. Analog

Earlier reports were wrong, MS is actually building a 360 emulator for the XBone:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/revealed-how-xbox-one-can-play-360-games-via-backw/1100-6428366/

Quote"The approach that we've taken is to actually emulate the full Xbox 360 hardware layer. So the [operating system] for the 360 is actually running when you run the game," Spencer explained.

"If you watch the game's boot you'll see the Xbox 360 boot animation come up. From a performance standpoint it allows [emulation] to work. We're able to get frame by frame performance equivalents."

"[Xbox Live] thinks you're on a 360, so people have been asking 'hey, why are you playing Mass Effect on the 360?,' I was actually playing on the Xbox One."
By Grabthar's Hammer

Melbosa

Sometimes I Think Before I Type... Sometimes!

Thorin

I'm not a gamer, I don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of the PS4-vs-XB1 battles.  I gotta say, though, kudos to Microsoft for realizing that this is what gamers wanted and then giving it to them.  Too bad the Kinect-based games won't work, although I understand there's lots of technical difficulties with sensors and all that.
Prayin' for a 20!

gcc thorin.c -pedantic -o Thorin
compile successful

Mr. Analog

Oddly enough Nintendo was on the ball with backward compatibility with the Wii U (which is why I bought it in the first place)

Microsoft has done a 180 on virtually everything that made last year's E3 a disaster for them, the question is is it enough to bring gamers into the current gen? Have they learnt anything, will they take features away over time like they did with the 360?
By Grabthar's Hammer