Hybrid Out, Diesel In

[Shayne]

Honda has been an industry innovator and leader in Hybrid vehicles.  At least they were...

Hybrids have now been hyped up beyond their own capabilities, so we find ourselves eagerly anticipating the comeback of the diesel engine...Nipon, claims that Honda's first diesel application in the Accord sedan will replace the Accord Hybrid sedan when it goes on sale around 2009...Nunn reports that the Accord Hybrid will be "quietly retired" upon the arrival of the four-cylinder Accord Diesel, which should be able to handily trounce the outgoing hot-rod V6 hybrid in fuel mileage at the same time delivering decent get up and go.

Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/05/accord-diesel-in-accord-hybrid-out/

I have looked at the hybrid with a smug smile.  Doing some simple math and comparing costs it would take you 10-15 years to pay off that extra cash over and above the typical gasoline of the same car.  That math doesn't factor in having to replace the entire battery array either.

[Darren Dirt]

They're being smart; mass consumer availability of diesel cars = easy mass utilization of biodiesel

[Shayne]

Won't fly in Canada all that well, my family has owned a couple diesel vehicles and they are absolutely no fun in the winter.  I have not been in a modern (1995 >) diesel so maybe they are better now in the Winter, but I have found performance to still be rather sluggish in comparison to the gasoline equivalent.

[Melbosa]

You just haven't been in the right Diesel vehicles then .  Ignition systems for diesels have come a very very long way since the 70s/80s glow plugs.  And power wise, you don't loose much at all anymore.  Not since about '92 has there really been a very large difference between the two, other than $$$ and milage (and that tiny extra time to wait to start the vehicle).  Diesels cost more, and as a general rule, get better milage - although Dodge has proven they can screw up that rule very easily (that is milage wise).

A friend has a Toyota Diesel Truck, and another a Unleaded of the same year.  Both 4cyl vehicles, and both have the same power and torque from our tests.  Both are stock engines.  Diesel gets about another 11 miles to the gallon, but takes an extra 30 secs before you can start the truck.

[Shayne]

I can't believe that.  I will give you that a Diesel engine is more efficient as that has been heavily proven, but I can't give you performance in an identical engine size.  Torque you might have, HP probably not so much.

[Darren Dirt]

Like I said, the more consumers who have a reasonable choice of diesel vs. nondiesel, the easier (read: cheaper) it will be to get people onboard the BD train (PS: working at AltaAg, recent I have seen recent news releases that clearly show the AltaGov is all about promoting/supporting alternatives fuels including/especially BD*. Alberta -- that cold province Up North )



- - -

* not to say it's a perfect replacement, of course...

[Lazybones]

I can't believe that.  I will give you that a Diesel engine is more efficient as that has been heavily proven, but I can't give you performance in an identical engine size.  Torque you might have, HP probably not so much.

Diesel has always been Higher Torque lower RPM than gasoline engines. However with Turbo Diesel injection having been matured over the years, I don't think it is a problem any more.

Cool.. Using google I found some Scholar links which should be suitable for research purposes.

[Shayne]

I spent 20 minutes or so Googling for performance diesel information and can't find much.  I know this isn't the forum to be talking about performance vehicles as most here are interested in the environment or would prefer something small and cheap to run.

Dodge produces a 2.4L 300hp 260 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $30K (fully loaded)
Mazda produces a 2.3L 263hp 280 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $31K (fully loaded)
GM produces a 2.0L 205hp 200 ft-lb engine in a cars thats sub $25K (fully loaded)

...and the best I could find for commercially available diesel is...

VW produces a 1.9L 100hp 177 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $26K (fully loaded)

...I haven't driven the VW, but I have driven 2 of the other 3 and they are absolutely off the hook in terms of snap your head back, burn rubber down the block through 3 gears.  City fuel economy isn't even comparable mind you (VW: 6.2C/4.6H GM: 9.2C/5.4H) on the highway it comes pretty darn close.

If you want a car to be a car then its good.  I want more I guess.  I want some fun while driving and now that I can afford to do so.

As for alternative fuel sources and blah blah Biodiesel, I gotta hand it over to Brazil and Venezuela for being the best of everyone clean burning Ethanol.

[Lazybones]

According to this article  the diesel has less of the mark acceleration, but blows the doors of the gas version in passing power.


Very interesting..

[Lazybones]

Looks like Audi Racing has had success as well

[Ustauk]

I spent 20 minutes or so Googling for performance diesel information and can't find much.  I know this isn't the forum to be talking about performance vehicles as most here are interested in the environment or would prefer something small and cheap to run.

Dodge produces a 2.4L 300hp 260 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $30K (fully loaded)
Mazda produces a 2.3L 263hp 280 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $31K (fully loaded)
GM produces a 2.0L 205hp 200 ft-lb engine in a cars thats sub $25K (fully loaded)

...and the best I could find for commercially available diesel is...

VW produces a 1.9L 100hp 177 ft-lb engine in a car thats sub $26K (fully loaded)

...I haven't driven the VW, but I have driven 2 of the other 3 and they are absolutely off the hook in terms of snap your head back, burn rubber down the block through 3 gears.  City fuel economy isn't even comparable mind you (VW: 6.2C/4.6H GM: 9.2C/5.4H) on the highway it comes pretty darn close.

If you want a car to be a car then its good.  I want more I guess.  I want some fun while driving and now that I can afford to do so.

As for alternative fuel sources and blah blah Biodiesel, I gotta hand it over to Brazil and Venezuela for being the best of everyone clean burning Ethanol.

I don't know if this is commercially available here yet, and its sure to cost an arm and a leg, but BMW has a twin-turbocharged 2,993cc engine with 286hp diesal engine in there new 3 series cars.

[Shayne]

I knew about the Audi, after winning like 5 in a row they took on a challenge.  Diesel engines have been a lot more reliable regardless.

As for the BMW the torque is the reason it passes better.  Rather massive turbo lag if you don't keep the engine up in the 1/2 area of its red line of 4700rpm.  You also can't get them in Canada, and they cost $51,958 in Germany.

I want affordable performance.  Sure this rebirth of diesel is new and it will take some time, im interested to see what they do in the bigger SUV area though as this is where I think my next vehicle will be.

[Shayne]

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11344/2006-bmw-330d-the-diesel-dilemma-page5.html

Interesting info on why diesel in the USA is so rare

[Melbosa]

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11344/2006-bmw-330d-the-diesel-dilemma-page5.html

Interesting info on why diesel in the USA is so rare

I'll admit this is so true.  Diesel is very limited in NA, compared to Europe and Asian markets.

And to respond to the original post of mine, I told you about the Toyota Truck on purpose, as I consider domestics to have diesels completely wrong.  If you look at a Dodge Diesel Turbo, it doesn't do much better than their Unleaded in terms of milage, just cheaper gas to buy.  Nissan, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Volkswagon, and even Mazda (once) have proven that they know what to do with Diesels.

But your right also.  Diesel Engines are historically not a performance platform.  Its meant for work vehicles or econo machines.  And to this day, I wouldn't buy a diesel based on its performance specks when talking about the power band, horse power, top end, etc.  I'd buy a diesel cause I'm going to work the living hell out of the thing, drive it to the ground, use it's torque for hauling purposes and I want it to last.  Traditionally Diesel motors are more durable than Unleaded.

[Thorin]

http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11344/2006-bmw-330d-the-diesel-dilemma-page5.html

I finally read this article front-to-back...  Interesting acceleration specs.  When performing a passing maneuver they didn't have to drop out of top gear?  They could probably make the 330d faster than the 330i by simply hooking up a high-power-capable Continuously Variable Transmission that keeps the engine revving at the sweet spot no matter what speed you drive...

I'll agree with Melbosa that diesels historically were for work vehicles or econoboxes, but I don't see why that has to remain that way in the future.  With the proper gearing changes any engine can be made either more fuel-efficient or better at accelerating the vehicle it's in; diesels have the advantage of providing more power using less fuel, but the disadvantage of creating more pollution in the process.

I still say that the way to go (as a car manufacturer) is to build cars with big electric motors that can be geared so that even at highway speeds the motor's turning slow enough to provide lots of power (electric motors lose torque as their RPM increases), and to use a gasoline or diesel motor *just to generate electricity*.  This combining two types of motors makes the vehicles more expensive than they need to be.

I want affordable performance. [...] bigger SUV [...] is where I think my next vehicle will be.

I find anything that gets the moniker "SUV" is automatically priced higher than a nearly-equivalent vehicle without that moniker.  I consider wagons to be nearly-equivalent to FWD mini-SUVs (which frequently let you buy an AWD system for a marked price increase).  I consider minivans (on which you can get AWD) to be nearly-equivalent to AWD/4WD regular SUVs (where the AWD/4WD does not have a lo-range option).  Generally the price for an SUV is 20% to 30% higher than the price of a nearly-equivalent wagon or minivan, ignoring the luxury brand names like Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Chrysler.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're looking for affordable performance I don't think the bigger SUV market is where you should be shopping, and if you're shopping for a bigger SUV, don't make "affordable performance" one of your requirements.