D&D 4?

[Mr. Analog]

Hah, back in March they made a cake!  To celebrate 4E going to the printers...

Lots of covers from Dragon magazine there.

[Thorin]

Canned adventures, bleh,

Fallcrest isn't a canned adventure, just a sample town to start adventuring in.  I like that they included a starting town, just like I liked that the old Expert rules had Threshold as a starting town.  Say what you will about it being canned, but the Known World (later renamed Mystara) had a huge variety of nations within it.  There were maybe twenty supplements for the Known World, with adventure modules set all over it.  It was nice for starting DMs to be able to just pick up a booklet and start DMing.

[Mr. Analog]

Canned adventures, bleh,

Fallcrest isn't a canned adventure, just a sample town to start adventuring in.  I like that they included a starting town, just like I liked that the old Expert rules had Threshold as a starting town.  Say what you will about it being canned, but the Known World (later renamed Mystara) had a huge variety of nations within it.  There were maybe twenty supplements for the Known World, with adventure modules set all over it.  It was nice for starting DMs to be able to just pick up a booklet and start DMing.

Good for newbies I guess.

[Tom]

[Thorin]

Hah!

[Mr. Analog]

ROFLMAO.... heeeeeeeeeeey!!

[Thorin]

This guy does several comics and plays D&D like crazy.  Sounds like he really doesn't like it: http://www.misfile.com/?page=1008 (read the text under the comic, not the comic itself - the comic's got nothing to do with D&D)

I'm going to preface this by saying that I've been playing D&D for over 20 years now. I've played every edition from Basic, AD&D, 2nd edition, 3.0, and 3.5. I've played more other systems than I care to remember, and I've played in bad games with people I don't like just to be able to play. That being said... I think I hate 4th edition.

I was initially pissed off that 4th edition was coming out so soon after 3rd. Wizards of the coast argues that it's been 8 years since edition 3.0, but neglect to point out that they hit us with 3.5 in the middle of that 8 year period and forced us to re-buy all the core rule books, so in reality it's only been a few years since the last edition. That being said, I was willing to give it a chance. I started hearing things about the new edition I didn't like. Messing with the core races and classes and other things that made it feel a bit "un-D&D" to me. I was pretty down on the whole thing when I picked up the preview books. Having read the previews, I actually became cautiously optimistic. They changes were explained and seemed less radical than before and I decided to withhold any further judgment until I'd actually PLAYED the new edition. I bought my new PHB on Thursday and started to become wary once again. The whole thing seems a bit too "video gamey" in feel to me. It felt difficult to create a unique character, and I felt as thought Clerics had lost their uniqueness and purpose and Arcane caster has been TOTALLY screwed. Still, I reserved judgment.

On Saturday, I played it, and my worst fears were confirmed. The party Cleric seemed to have no purpose. There was no reason to bother playing a wizard at all. Later, my feelings on the video game feel of $e were confirmed by the owner of the hobby shop, who said Wizards was trying to win over people from the MMORPG crowd. The pen and paper version of D&D is not a video game. It will never be a video game. There is already a D&D video game. Pen and paper games will never attract swaths of video gamers no matter how many MMORPG terms like tank and healer you adjust in the books. As far as I'm concerned, Wizards is merely alienating their core supporters in a misguided attempt to pursue a group they cannot win over.

I will happily continue playing 3.5 for the foreseeable future. Luckily, in the great "Wizards of the Coast: Quest for more money", I'm sure they'll spring version 4.5 on us in two years time, and hopefully some of these glaring issues will be addressed. Better yet, perhaps they'll scrap most of the concepts in 4.0 in their entirely and make a system that is fun to play and that appeals to people who actually PLAY their games rather than just computer gamers.

[Mr. Analog]

Wizards is fairly unashamed of trying to get new market share and has made several allusions to WOW (at least from my readings). Whether this is a good or bad thing I cannot say.

I can't say much about 4e yet because I haven't read the books, but there are some things which I've read that make me scratch my head, like how saving throws work (the example I read this morning stated that under the 4e rules if you fall off a cliff the cliff makes the saving throw, not you. Is that right?).

The goal for D&D has been two fold this time around:
-Simplification
-Attracting video gamers

The Game Day on Saturday has created a lot of new interest in D&D (which is good IMHO) but the face of the game has changed. For good or ill only time will tell...

[Thorin]

Wizards is fairly unashamed of trying to get new market share and has made several allusions to WOW (at least from my readings). Whether this is a good or bad thing I cannot say.

All the allusions to WOW have been by people not employed by WoTC, as far as I've read.  Wizards' employees appear to choose their words really carefully not to brand D&D4 as paper-WoW.

I can't say much about 4e yet because I haven't read the books, but there are some things which I've read that make me scratch my head, like how saving throws work (the example I read this morning stated that under the 4e rules if you fall off a cliff the cliff makes the saving throw, not you. Is that right?).

In D&D3, you would make a Balance check to keep from falling off the cliff.
In D&D4, you would make an Athletics check (I think?) to keep from falling off the cliff.
In D&D3, you would take 1d6 damage per 10' fallen.
In D&D4, you would take 1d6 damage per 10' fallen.

So no, there's no saving throw related to cliffs.  A better example is the pit trap:

In D&D3, you would make a Reflex save against a DC20 to keep from falling in the pit.
In D&D4, the pit trap would roll an attack against your Reflex defense to try and get you to fall in the pit.

At least, that's how I *think* it works in D&D4, I've only skimmed the Traps section.  In either case, it's a d20 rolled against a static number - in D&D3 the static number is the DC, in D&D4 the static number is your Reflex defense score.

edit: noticed that all my text was inside a quote - broke it out for readability

[Thorin]

So, has anyone else started reading the D&D4 books?

[Thorin]

There are errata posted for the books, although they are surprisingly short thus far.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates

Nerfed my character a little, though

[Thorin]

I know at least one person (looks at Tonnica) has started looking at the books.  Anyone else?  I'm interested in opinions based on what people have read...

[Melbosa]

Have... to... find... time... to... read... stuff

In all seriousness, I'll probably look at it tonight while I do contract work (installs of OSs).

[Thorin]

Have... to... find... time... to... read... stuff

Less time with screens = more time with books.  Although I suppose in this case it's a book being read on a screen...

[TheDruid]

I actually purchased the PHB on the weekend and started reading through. Im not very far in (just got to the classes chapter) but i do like what i know about so far.

Powers: at-will, encounter, daily <-- simplified, yes "video gamey" almost like Diablo, but i think i will enjoy this change
Races: I think races in 4e may have a bigger affect on your character than before

Little disappointed in the lack of a Druid class so far. ITs painfully clear that WOTC plans on raping me for $$$ in the near future with additional PHB's that add the *missing* classes and races.

I've actually been listening to some Podcasts of 4e D&D sessions being played. A) It gives you a great idea of how 4e plays and B) It?s interesting to hear how a WOTC professional DM's a game. In those Podcasts the game seems to be very action packed.

It?s a little disappointing to read about that guy above who feels wizards are useless, i was actually quite pumped about rolling a wizard. Wonder what he sees that I don?t? He says he doesn?t like 4e, but doesn?t go into any detail other than ?it?s not like 3e?. I guess i might just be one of those video gamers he was bitching about