New toy!

[Tom]

Dude, woah, it wasn't meant to be a "think about it", it was more like a "only you can prevent forest fires" pun.  Sorry, guess that didn't make it across.

I don't see it to be honest

Guess it sounded better in my head.

Or its just my brain completely missing something.

[Thorin]

As for the car thing, I can't drive by myself for at least a year after I pass the test. So it's absolutely stupid to get a car. I'm thinking of getting a bike, but finances are tight right now (6 weeks of no pay is kinda harsh), so no spending a few thousand or more on a motorbike or even a moped.

Umm...  Which test?  Are you going for class 7?  With a class 7 you can't drive by yourself ever.  Class 5?  You can drive by yourself the moment you get a class 5.  Motorbike?  You'll need a class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 7 as a learners' license for class 6, and you can't go out riding the motorbike without a class 6 licensed instructor on another bike with you.

And I thought you had a moped with pedals to get around now?

[Tom]

As for the car thing, I can't drive by myself for at least a year after I pass the test. So it's absolutely stupid to get a car. I'm thinking of getting a bike, but finances are tight right now (6 weeks of no pay is kinda harsh), so no spending a few thousand or more on a motorbike or even a moped.

Umm...  Which test?  Are you going for class 7?  With a class 7 you can't drive by yourself ever.  Class 5?  You can drive by yourself the moment you get a class 5.  Motorbike?  You'll need a class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 7 as a learners' license for class 6, and you can't go out riding the motorbike without a class 6 licensed instructor on another bike with you.

Indeed. If I try and get my class 5, I can't drive a car by myself till I'm out of probation. It takes a year to get to the point where you are then restricted in other ways, which lasts two more years... It's really stupid for (single) adults. It's trying to promote practice, instead I get no experience what so ever.

And I thought you had a moped with pedals to get around now?

It'll never get me to Battery World, let alone back.

[Thorin]

Well I wasn't referring to getting to Battery World specifically, more a general statement about being able to get around.

I'm not sure where you heard the details about class 5 and not being allowed to drive alone until you're out of "probation"?  Here's the scoop that I'm aware of: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType47/Production/graduateddriverlic.pdf source: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/543.htm#Graduated_Driver_Licensing

To receive a class 5 you have to have held a class 7 for one year and then pass a road test.  While you have the class 7 you have to have an accompanying driver.  Most people pay for driving lessons, and the instructor is then the accompanying driver.  Once you've had your class 7 for one year and then pass a road test, you get your class 5 and can then drive all by yourself anywhere, anytime.  Getting the class 7 is a theory test, so does not require previous driving experience, only theoretical knowledge.

The normal path to driving yourself is:
1. study for class 7 theory test
2. pass class 7 theory test
3. take driving lessons
4. study for class 5 road test
5. one year after getting class 7, pass class 5 GDL road test
6. don't drink and drive, don't break driving laws, don't get license suspended, don't try to teach others to drive
7. two years after getting class 5 GDL, pass class 5 advanced road test
8. still don't drink and drive

I think the part you're complaining about is that you're not living with your folks and able to learn how to drive using their car - instead you'll have to pay someone to teach you (or ask friends; I've got an old Volvo that if you "accidentally" busted it up while learning I wouldn't mind).

But step 1 is getting your class 7.

[Tom]

I wasn't talking about getting a class 7. But being able to drive. The fact that they split it up like that doesn't change the fact that it takes 3 years to get a full class 5. And the entire first year, you can't drive at all without someone with a license with you.

Sure getting the class 7 gdl thing is the very first step, but who cares? that's not the goal.

I think the part you're complaining about is that you're not living with your folks and able to learn how to drive using their car - instead you'll have to pay someone to teach you (or ask friends; I've got an old Volvo that if you "accidentally" busted it up while learning I wouldn't mind).

That's nice and all, but you'd have to be there as well, or someone would. Most likely you, as I doubt you'll add me to your insurance. I'm pretty sure you're waaay too busy to help out often enough to really matter.


p.s. if I sound grouchy, thats because I got up at 3 am.

[Thorin]

The major difference between the GDL class 5 and the full class 5 is how many demerit points you can get before your license gets suspended.  If you don't speed and don't run red lights and stop for stop signs (ie don't get demerit points), this has no effect on your ability to drive around town on your own.

The second most major difference is zero BAC (blood alcohol content) tolerance with a GDL class 5 vs 0.08 BAC tolerance with full class 5 (although with 0.05 BAC you get a 24-hour suspension these days).  This effects your ability to drive around town on your own if you're drinking alcohol but I wouldn't say having to say sober is a major inconvenience.

So really a one year wait period, during which time you can have friends, family, or professionals teach you how to drive.  Having been a pretty horrific driver when I first started, I can see the value in easing people into piloting a couple of tons of steel at 100km/h.

As far as helping learn to drive, all you have to do is ask.  I can lend my car out to any licensed driver and my insurance will cover them and them-teaching-you without having to add either them or you to my insurance; I'm just on the hook if anything happens.  I have several times lent my car out to friends so they can learn how to drive.  And going driving with a buddy a couple of times a week for a few months so that they can get comfortable driving and get their class 5 and get a car and the improved quality of life that comes with personal mobility, I don't mind that.

But one point you seem to gloss over is the driving lessons - most kids take driving lessons even though their parents could teach them, because the parents understand that the $500 for ten one-hour lessons will teach those kids much more quickly than driving with mom while she's white-knuckling the oh-@%&# handles.  I'd recommend you take them.

[Tom]

The lessons are more like $1000-1500 these days, at least if you go with AMA or whoever.

I've looked into it. Though I haven't yet looked very hard (have a little, didn't find much) for smaller driver training places.

I do understand the reason behind the changes. In fact, I'm all for the intent behind it. But it really makes it an incredibly painful experience for adults.

[Thorin]

Yeah, just looked at AMA, it's $809 (+ GST, so $849.45) for 10 hours in-car and 18 hours in-class.  It used to be cheaper, although they offer a $100 off the first year of insurance through AMA, so that'd make it $750 net.  I know my mother is paying for my son's driving lessons as a birthday present from last year and I'm sure she's not paying that much.

So what would you like them to change about the licensing process?

[Tom]

Yeah, just looked at AMA, it's $809 (+ GST, so $849.45) for 10 hours in-car and 18 hours in-class.

If you go with the absolute bare minimum course. I'd like to get some of the extras. which are $$$$.

  It used to be cheaper, although they offer a $100 off the first year of insurance through AMA, so that'd make it $750 net.  I know my mother is paying for my son's driving lessons as a birthday present from last year and I'm sure she's not paying that much.

So what would you like them to change about the licensing process?

I honestly don't know. It'd be nice if they could grandfather in some people, if you're over XXX age, go with the old setup.

[Thorin]

Okay, so, I got my class 5 license in 1990 when I turned 16.  That was 23 years ago.  Even back then, you had to get your class 7 first and then take the road test and then you'd get your class 5.  At the time it wasn't called GDL (graduated drivers license), but we were still limited to 8 demerit points instead of 15 and zero tolerance for alcohol for the first two years and only as many people in the vehicle as seatbelts (this was back when you could still put people in the back of a pickup) - all the same restrictions as a class 5 GDL has now.

So the only difference would be that I didn't have to wait a year from when I got my class 7 to be able to get my class 5.

Well, you know what else was different?  Insurance costs.  My first year of insurance was $3,122, $260.17 per month.  That included a discount for the driver training I got.  A brand new driver with driver training in 2012 paid $1,403, $116.92 per month.  This savings is due to the grid system that has been implemented (calculator here: http://www.airb.alberta.ca/gridrate/AirbGrid1.aspx), but when that grid system came in six or eight years ago, it started at roughly $1,800 per year.  Insurance rates have gone down because collisions and thus claims against insurance have been reduced.  Forcing new drivers to actually learn to drive before being allowed to slide behind the wheel solo and with a couple of beers for the road in their system has helped reduce those collisions.

As for grandfathering, it sounds more like you're complaining about the rules applying to you.  Would you be happy if they grandfathered all people five years older than you?  Probably not, you'd still have to wait.

So, are you going to get / have you gotten your class 7?

[Tom]

I will be getting my class 7 "soon".

I wouldn't be against some rules saying that you can bypass the first learners year by passing a rigorous training course and test. I think that'd be just fine. Even if it cost $1500, I'd probably pay it.

As it is, it seems so pointless, that the overwhelming desire for me to not be so /stuck/ out here, is dampened.

[Darren Dirt]

The entire first year, you can't drive at all without someone with a license with you.

Always been that way, when you have Class 7 aka Learner's Permit.





Finally gonna chime in on the rest (briefly -- well, as briefly as Darren is able, lol)


My son got his Class 5 license a few weeks ago. Ignoring the emotional aspect, as a parent (proud at first, then scared even though he's got a sharper more defensive mind than half of the idiots I see on Edmonton roads, then WooHoo Happy I can send him out to the store or whatever and not have to be the one driving HIM all the time!) ... what I understand is that the "graduated" etc. changes to the Class 5 = only MINIMAL changes to what it was 25 years ago when I got my driver's.



When you pass the written test you get your "Class 7" which allows you to drive with a licensed Class 5 driver in the passenger seat, until MIDNIGHT.

When you pass the ROAD TEST to get your "Class 5", you immediately are able to drive alone. UNTIL MIDNIGHT.

The only other changes have to do with the delay of time between getting the Class 7 and the Class 5 (which must be annoying to adults who finally want to get legit, but HEY the reason for it is EXPERIENCE on the actual ROADS; it's a different world out there vs. on the written page!) , as well as # of demerits or Blood Alcohol Level allowed ... too lazy right now to look that stuff up, but they're pretty nasty tightening of the rules. Might help discourage the very young/high schoolers from drinking before driving (maybe even "at all" since they never know when they gotta drive!) but AFAIK none of the rules re. driving alone have changed once you have your Class 5.


My son got a LOT of experience behind the wheel with me sitting beside him (as well as his mom, but a large majority was ME anxiously pulling out my remaining hair while he fish-tailed on the Worst Winter Roads Ever or went over the biggest of the Worst Potholes Ever, but hey now he's a VERY confident and skilled driver!) ... fortunately he didn't need to take a Driver Training school/class as a result (although he took a "pre-test" course for like $60 or $80 that he said really helped him to know what to make sure he nailed on the road test).

/EndOfEssay

[Tom]

The other change, which you missed, is that you have to have your learners (class7) for an entire year before you're eligible to take the Class 5 tests.

[Darren Dirt]

The other change, which you missed, is that you have to have your learners (class7) for an entire year before you're eligible to take the Class 5 tests.

I mentioned it, above (I did an edit* after submitting, so you might not have seen that).

I wouldn't be against some rules saying that you can bypass the first learners year by passing a rigorous training course and test.

The whole point of the year delay is that Real Driving On Real Roads requires time to "get it", no matter how many times you crushed it on Pole Position or Need For Speed or whatever, facing off against aggressive/stupid/egomaniac Edmonton drivers is a very different experience that takes many MONTHS for the brain to fully process and adapt to... Hopefully most young people who pass the written Class 7 are able to get a LOT of time behind the wheel like I did with my son. Ditto for you, Tom, seriously, being a good, confident, defensively-aware driver is something that doesn't come more quickly just cuz you're over 21 or half a dozen c-notes you can afford to throw down -- you need to put in the time, just like everybody else.





*yeah, it was part of what I edited:

The only other changes have to do with the delay of time between getting the Class 7 and the Class 5 (which must be annoying to adults who finally want to get legit, but HEY the reason for it is EXPERIENCE on the actual ROADS; it's a different world out there vs. on the written page!) , as well as # of demerits or Blood Alcohol Level allowed ... too lazy right now to look that stuff up...

[Tom]

I wouldn't be against some rules saying that you can bypass the first learners year by passing a rigorous training course and test.

The whole point of the year delay is that Real Driving On Real Roads requires time to "get it", no matter how many times you crushed it on Pole Position or Need For Speed or whatever, facing off against aggressive/stupid/egomaniac Edmonton drivers is a very different experience that takes many MONTHS for the brain to fully process and adapt to... Hopefully most young people who pass the written Class 7 are able to get a LOT of time behind the wheel like I did with my son. Ditto for you, Tom, seriously, being a good, confident, defensively-aware driver is something that doesn't come more quickly just cuz you're over 21 or half a dozen c-notes you can afford to throw down -- you need to put in the time, just like everybody else.

My whole point is that some people CAN NOT get that kind of experience. What are they supposed to do? Not drive at all? Ever?