There are massive protests going on in the Ukraine, and they've been going since late November. I didn't really understand why or what they're protesting about, as most news has been heavily blacked out and only stuff posted on alternative news sites on the internet has been getting through.
Then I came across this informative article: http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1. Interesting that just like in Egypt, the paramilitary forces have been deployed by the government and are beating people up (although not as bad as Tahrir Square), while the army has stood to the side and refused to enter any conflict with civilians.
It's really crazy too some of the photos and stuff circulating around that I have seen.
There was an anti protest law passed recently, and it has now been annulled. And most of the government has resigned. The largest trigger I think was the deal the Ukraine made with Russia over the one everyone seemed to want with the EU. Russia threatened sanctions of sorts if they dealt with the EU..
Confused about all the controversy and anger re. the Crimean "referendum" that was apparently 97% pro-Russia?
Just like the Quebec stupidity many years ago, this was terribad wording:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014#Choices
Not just terrible wording, but everyone who was against leaving, didn't vote.
Quote from: Tom on March 17, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Not just terrible wording, but everyone who was against leaving, didn't vote.
"Do you want to be annexed by Russia, or be under Ukraine but not in the present way?" ummm what about staying the same -- not a choice, then I won't vote! :(
It's confusing enough on the outside, imagine it on the inside, with a warped state-run media and then word of mouth
Not to mention the Armed soldiers and militia roving about.
The Republic of Crimea has declared independence from Ukraine and will join the Russian Federation
Sanctions have been declared by both the US and EU on Ukrainian / Russian officials
Putin becomes more bold
Apparently they breached the Crimean border into Russia to seize a gas valve station. Of course
it was several days ago, and not really reported on much.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on March 18, 2014, 09:03:12 AM
The Republic of Crimea has declared independence from Ukraine and will join the Russian Federation
Sanctions have been declared by both the US and EU on Ukrainian / Russian officials
Putin becomes more bold
According to the rhetoric of John Kerry, Steven Harper, etc. the "declaration" is against international law, and the referendum it is based on was only legal if the entire population of Ukraine took part -- hence the sanctions.
Putin has always been bold, he should really put a shirt on more often (based on Jon Stewart's recurring jokes).
It would have been better if the options included staying. With the vote so clearly rigged I can't really believe the results are valid.
Quote from: Tom on March 18, 2014, 11:01:42 AM
It would have been better if the options included staying. With the vote so clearly rigged I can't really believe the results are valid.
Those who were anti-annexation who stayed home in protest are now regretting it, methinks.
...or if they had come out would they have met with the Spetsnaz units deployed in Ukraine
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine
Though more likely they were functioning as agent provocateur to try to incite violent rioting which would justify more foreign involvement
Quote
...several Russians dressed black uniforms with no insignia, armed with AKS-74 assault rifles and in possession of numerous ID cards under various names...
So laughable that Putin or his PR folks tried to claim they were local militia who were most certainly not placed there by Russian orders or anything... Even Jon Stewart called BS on that.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on March 18, 2014, 09:03:12 AM
Putin becomes more bold
(http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/73/13/73134b06dadfd7def858a244f5728513.jpg) (http://www.examiner.com/article/world-war-3-russia-could-turn-us-into-ash-russian-tv-journalist-tells-crowd)
# of @%&#s given: нулевой!
edit: so he's given a speech pressing on with annexation; here we go farther down the rabbit hole.
Quote
Mr. Putin said he did not seek to divide Ukraine any further, but vowed that he would protect Russia?s national security from what he described as Western, and particularly American, actions that had left Russia feeling cornered... He spoke as he has often in the past of the humiliations Russia has suffered in a world with one dominant superpower...
more emotion-tugging and hand0-washing and chest-beating, along with empty-threat responses by most of the G8 leadership, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html
Quote from: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/17/opinion/ghitis-crimea-vote/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
The spectacle of Russia swallowing pieces of a neighboring country while claiming to defend its people would make George Orwell grimace with recognition ... In this twilight zone of make-believe, Russian troops invade after removing the insignias from their uniforms and Putin explains, "You can go to a store and buy a uniform," claiming they are local "self-defense forces."
I like one of the comments: "I'm guessing this means he would be fine with independence votes in his Caucus republics, right? He would respect those votes? How about the Chinese moving to protect those of Chinese ethic origin in the Russian far east?"
QuoteUkrainian soldiers serving in Crimea have been authorized to use their weapons to defend themselves, according to the acting Ukrainian president's press service.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukrainian-soldiers-authorized-to-use-weapons-by-acting-president-1.2577236
The stage is set, the actors in place, it begins.
@%&#.
https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/445965896498946048
^ and that tweet ain't just the fearmongering from some random blogger, hell no: http://blogs.reuters.com/ian-bremmer/2014/03/13/who-loses-most-in-ukraine/
heard around the world?
Quote from: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296
Ukraine's military says an officer has been killed in an attack on a base in Crimea, the first such death since pro-Russia forces took control in February.
Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence.
The attack came shortly after Russian President Vladimir Putin and the leaders of Crimea signed a bill to absorb the peninsula into Russia.
...The Ukrainian government said the commander of the unit was captured by men wearing Russian uniforms.
Defence ministry spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov told Reuters the attack was by "unknown forces, fully equipped and their faces covered".
The Ukrainians had had their IDs, weapons and money confiscated, he said.
[sadly, nicely and accurately summed up, UK Prime Minister David Cameron!] "Russia used force to change borders on the basis of a sham referendum held at the barrel of a Russian gun"
So looks like the media is doing a hindsight analysis of the annexation of Crimea as a done-deal. e.g. calling it "the smoothest invasion of modern times. It was over before the outside world realised it had even started" http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26644082
If you want some extra background from what seems like a credible source read:
http://www.moderntokyotimes.com/2014/03/19/useu-most-responsible-for-crisis-in-ukraine-crimean-people-have-spoken/
EXCELLENT find, Tom!
I learned a lot of stuff not twisted by western interests nor Russian bias. Mainly that the way Kosovo* was dealt with by everyone makes the majority of westerner's objections logically inconsistent and void. And also opens the door for Kurds and Albertans to break off on their own...
*even Wikipedia hasn't "memory hole"d that part of very relevant history -- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence
Quote from: Tom on March 19, 2014, 07:16:03 PM
If you want some extra background from what seems like a credible source read:
http://www.moderntokyotimes.com/2014/03/19/useu-most-responsible-for-crisis-in-ukraine-crimean-people-have-spoken/
I am hoping the aforementioned excellent article's author ain't acquired any American assets.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/march/14/against-ukraine-war-obama-may-seize-your-assets.aspx
PS: leave it to the Muppets to accidentally comment on the current global political situation:
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-muppets-steal-crimea/25303894.html
Kosovo was not handled the same way as Crimea. Kosovo had freedom fighters / terrorists fighting for independence from any country. Crimea had foreign troops pretending to be locals getting ready to fight for switching which country they were dependent on. If the Crimeans had said, "Ukraine, get out, Russia, get out, we want to be our own state", and then in return the Ukrainian troops had started killing Russians and Tatars in Crimea, then it would've been similar to Kosovo.
Ukraine was slowly working towards EU and NATO membership, but with Russia annexing Crimea and giving veiled threats about doing the same to eastern Ukraine, that has been stopped. The next question is what Putin intends to do to Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, all of whom are NATO members. If he attacks them in any way, NATO is required to respond to defend them. At the same time, Putin has stated that he needs to defend Russia from the military pact of NATO , that he needs to keep NATO away from Russia's doorstep. Well, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia border directly on Russia, so NATO is already on Russia's doorstep.
More than anything, I think Putin's decision to annex Crimea has to do with the military importance of the Black Sea Fleet port at Sevastopol and the multiple oil and gas fields found in this area (Russian special forces landed at a gas plant in Strilkove, Kherson Oblast, Ukraine, which is not part of Crimea although it's very close). Putin is working hard at creating a Fortress Russia, where the country becomes completely self-sufficient with energy, production, and agriculture again.
Crimea/Ukraine also had serious outside meddling.
The EU agreement seems to have been untennable, and not actually possible for ukraine to implement. It would have cost them more than their GDP to do so, when they are already in massive debt.
I understand now why the sudden about face from the EU deal to take Russia's deal. I don't think it should have been done so secretly or suddenly, but I understand the reasoning. Take a deal on gas, and billions in direct aid, or wait (possibly) decades for the EU to get around to approving your entrance into the EU, while they mandate you REDO your entire rail infrastructure and change various laws to be more EU friendly (like the EU is trying to do to canada in various trade deals).
Taking the EU deal as it is described in the article I posted would have been a major mistake.
The meddling from the US is just... wow. The US is essentially directly responsible for the bloody mess of maidan. They helped a violent racist nationalist party gain traction, and then grab actual power. The first thing they do when they get in office after booting the democratically elected president out? Revoke a law making Russian an official language. Second thing they "do" is not implement an agreement the country made that the maidan group agreed to. Go figure.
The US has done that before, in several other countries. Meddle and try and get some kind of benefit out of the situation regardless of the consequences.
Makes me angry.
Above truths and stuff been reading this weeks makes me partly hoping that some Deep Impact or financial megacrash or whatever other @%&# DOES happen tomorrow... then maybe sleeping narcicistic apathetics might wake the hell up about how disconnected and adversarial everybody and everything has gotten over the past quarter century or so. And unite in a way never seen before in decadesm Just without globalist/state control orchestrating it all, instead may we see a true grassroots humanity-healing change come forth.
#soundingLikeAnOldMan #but@%&#ItWhoCares
Somebody's got a case of the Malaise
That article you posted completely missed the previous statements that Yanukovych and his friends absconded with billions of dollars worth of Ukrainian hryvna out of the Ukrainian Treasury. That is, Yanukovych was having the government fork over money to him and his friends to go on trips, to build houses (palaces), to buy things that aren't even listed on an invoice, etc. The estimate was approximately $15 billion dollars worth of graft.
Euromaidan started because the people of Ukraine had had enough with government corruption and graft, as they saw their tax money disappear while their country fell into disrepair. They blamed this entirely on Yanukovych and his modelling himself on the leaders of Russia (not just Putin, but also the rich oligarchs at the top). When it first started, one of the chants was "no more corruption". It is believed now that Euromaidan was eventually infiltrated by multiple groups with their own agendas, including Svoboda (an extreme right party), Spetsnaz (some are suggesting the snipers were Spetsnaz), CIA (some are suggesting the CIA paid locals to try and cause riots), and even plain-clothes Burket (the riot police, who were itching to beat down rioters but needed the rioters to start it).
As for Crimea, as much as Putin claims it was the people who rose up and decided to switch to his country, the fact of the matter is that first Russian troops suddenly appeared across all of the region, and only then was there suddenly a hue and cry for the region to join Russia. This is similar to the trouble in Georgia, with Russia militarily backing separatists in the South Ossetia and Abkhazia regions back in 2008 (and actually for a decade before that). That also led to Russia sending troops in and eventually annexing a region or two from another sovereign state under the guise of "protecting its citizens". Even though they only became Russian citizens after the invasion and annexation was complete.
I do think the article left out a few points, but the US has clearly been meddling again. and it continues to piss me off >:(
Not to say that Russia's meddling doesn't also piss me off.... They had turned off radio and tv stations in Crimea for not toting the official russian line. Interfering with stations from across the crimean border, and there were rumors that Cell and Internet services may get turned off (I heard this directly from someone in Ukraine). At one point it was hard to get any information in Crimea that wasn't directly out of Moscow (or twitter! ;)).
Quote from: Thorin on March 20, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
That article you posted completely missed the previous statements that Yanukovych and his friends absconded with billions of dollars worth of Ukrainian hryvna out of the Ukrainian Treasury. That is, Yanukovych was having the government fork over money to him and his friends to go on trips, to build houses (palaces), to buy things that aren't even listed on an invoice, etc. The estimate was approximately $15 billion dollars worth of graft.
Euromaidan started because the people of Ukraine had had enough with government corruption and graft, as they saw their tax money disappear while their country fell into disrepair. They blamed this entirely on Yanukovych and his modelling himself on the leaders of Russia (not just Putin, but also the rich oligarchs at the top). When it first started, one of the chants was "no more corruption".
^ yeah!
But...
Quote from: Thorin on March 20, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
It is believed now that Euromaidan was eventually infiltrated by multiple groups with their own agendas, including Svoboda (an extreme right party), Spetsnaz (some are suggesting the snipers were Spetsnaz), CIA (some are suggesting the CIA paid locals to try and cause riots), and even plain-clothes Burket (the riot police, who were itching to beat down rioters but needed the rioters to start it).
So Putin has admitted that the well-trained and well-armed men in Crimea, who did not wear insignia identifying their country of origin, were in fact Russian soldiers: http://www.novinite.com/articles/159921/Putin+Admits+%E2%80%9CLittle+Green+Men%E2%80%9D+in+Crimea+Were+Russian+Troops.
Although they did not identify themselves as Russian soldiers, it was clear from their garb and equipment that they were armed combatants part of a general force, therefore they were technically speaking still within the rules of article 4 of the Geneva Conventions: http://www.ibtimes.com/russias-use-unmarked-troops-simferopol-crimea-shady-not-illegal-1559425. Of course, it cast serious doubt on whether anything Putin says is true.
Now he's stating that those same well-trained and well-armed men in eastern Ukraine are local self-defense forces: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F05e1d8ca-c57a-11e3-a7d4-00144feabdc0.html&ei=Kj5QU56QEceq2QWR64DYDw&usg=AFQjCNElOWTMzf3ppIWlTLrwGchssGyl_A&sig2=FW-we0q87Wb2_c96tPnGhw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.b2I. How likely is it that he's lying?
There's evidence (That I can't find at the moment) that says that a good number of the people holding local city offices are actually Russian's as well. I read an article that talked to one of them, and he admited to being Russian and doing it "For my russian brothers!".
Yuh.
Nothing putin says here can be taken seriously.
A foreign national being voted into office or accepting a job working for the city is one thing. Sending armed troops into another country with the intent of taking things away from that country but then denying that you're doing so, well, that's quite another. It's becoming more and more believable that the Spetznaz actually fomented the original unrest last November to try and provoke civil unrest that Russia could then swoop in and stop, invading Ukraine under the auspice of "seeking peace".
Meanwhile, Chinese day labourers and immigrants have been steadily increasing in Russia's Far East, helping said area to expand and grow. However, the day will come when the Chinese send in their troops to protect their citizens' right to a "fair referendum on splitting from Russia and joining their country".
Quote from: Thorin on April 18, 2014, 03:37:27 AM
A foreign national being voted into office or accepting a job working for the city is one thing. Sending armed troops into another country with the intent of taking things away from that country but then denying that you're doing so, well, that's quite another.
So, it wasn't that the foreign national took a job or was voted into office.. Its foreign nationals and local extremists walking into the city offices and taking them at gun point. Then trying to put through votes to either succeed, or start a referendum to federalize. aka: most citizens aren't actually involved in it, and at most might be for federalizing, but thats about it.
Quote from: Thorin on April 18, 2014, 03:37:27 AM
It's becoming more and more believable that the Spetznaz actually fomented the original unrest last November to try and provoke civil unrest that Russia could then swoop in and stop, invading Ukraine under the auspice of "seeking peace".
Both sides have been trying to mess with things.
The EU, NATO and the US have been pushing for major changes. The original EU deal would have bankrupted Ukraine... A lot of the Maidan stuff AFTER it started was seeded by the US. The new temporary government that clearly wishes it wasnt temporary was put into place by the US for the most part. And note, that those people are not average citizens, they are members of an extremist party that is not above/beneath using violence to get their way, and there may be some evidence that they themselves hired the gunmen to shoot at the protesters to rile things up.
It's a giant cluster@%&#. Everyone wants the oil and resources and noone gives a @%&# about Ukraine or its people. Bunch of children fighting over a country as if its a toy.
I say russia has a reason to be a bit nervous:
(http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/russia_wants_war_look_how_closely_they_put_country_to_our_military_bases.jpg)
The US and NATO have essentially surrounded them completely.
I think that map need to be fact-checked - I don't remember there being a US or NATO base in Kazakhstan or Somalia, just off the hop. Also, I wonder where the Russian bases are located? They do still operate bases in other countries, like the one in Sevastopol - wait, scratch that, they decided to just annex the land so it wouldn't be a foreign base.
I think any country that is a NATO partner and has its own bases counts as having a nato base ;)
you can't deny that the us has done a lot to fence in countries it sees as a threat, even though they'd probably be less of a treat if we didn't fence them in (caged animal syndrome?)
Cat's out of the bag now:
Putin reveals secrets of Russia's Crimea takeover plot
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226
I'm surprised that he admitted it, rather than maintaining the lie, because I'm sure other world leaders will trust him even less now when he vehemently denies what is directly before him.
But then we all knew who the little green men were, and we all know the Russian soldiers fighting in eastern Ukraine (with heavy weaponry like tanks and howitzers) are not "on leave".
It's just too bad that there's so much name-calling and propaganda being used to try and win the war in Ukraine. The original Euromaidan protesters, who were peaceful and unarmed and just wanted the government to come through on its promises to take steps to join the European Union, have now been re-cast in the Russian media as fascists and bigots and neo-nazis and any other names the Russians can call them. And the original protesters were none of these. The armed militias that were encouraged to join the fight since the east Ukrainian troubles began may well be, though.
There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house. Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".
Quote from: Thorin on April 20, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house. Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".
YUP! I could have sworn I posted something like this before, and they are EVERYWHERE, and usually easy to spot (like corporate astroturfers)
The sad thing are the poor saps who get trolled by this (legit mad because of the paid-for nonsense) and waste their time writing huge replies to what is basically a bot with a wallet WITH STOCK ANSWERS DESIGNED TO TROLL FURTHER
it's quite the racket
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 20, 2015, 10:24:16 PM
Quote from: Thorin on April 20, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house. Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".
YUP! I could have sworn I posted something like this before, and they are EVERYWHERE, and usually easy to spot (like corporate astroturfers)
The sad thing are the poor saps who get trolled by this (legit mad because of the paid-for nonsense) and waste their time writing huge replies to what is basically a bot with a wallet WITH STOCK ANSWERS DESIGNED TO TROLL FURTHER
it's quite the racket
Ain't just Rushin' trolls either.
Comment, from the above Guardian article:
"All major countries have a troll army including the US. -- http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks "
As reported by The Guardian.
It's like spies, every team has one and they suck
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 21, 2015, 08:39:18 AM
It's like spies, every team has one and they suck
pro-tip: If you're gonna make a Team Fortress 2 reference, at least capitalize "Spies" (it took me a second to get it)
Quote from: Darren Dirt on April 21, 2015, 08:48:27 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 21, 2015, 08:39:18 AM
It's like spies, every team has one and they suck
pro-tip: If you're gonna make a Team Fortress 2 reference, at least capitalize "Spies" (it took me a second to get it)
The metaphor works for both :D
Quote from: Darren Dirt on April 21, 2015, 08:28:51 AM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on April 20, 2015, 10:24:16 PM
Quote from: Thorin on April 20, 2015, 05:43:37 PM
There are definitely, definitely, people being paid by Russia to post pro-Putin comments: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house. Yet another thing that was being denied, "or if it is happening, well, everyone does that".
YUP! I could have sworn I posted something like this before, and they are EVERYWHERE, and usually easy to spot (like corporate astroturfers)
The sad thing are the poor saps who get trolled by this (legit mad because of the paid-for nonsense) and waste their time writing huge replies to what is basically a bot with a wallet WITH STOCK ANSWERS DESIGNED TO TROLL FURTHER
it's quite the racket
Ain't just Rushin' trolls either.
Comment, from the above Guardian article:
"All major countries have a troll army including the US. -- http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks "
As reported by The Guardian.
There seems to be some difference between the two groups of trolls we posted links about here.
The Russians are civilians being paid cash to allow deniability who are tasked to pump up the leader in their own language to influence and control Russians' view of their leader, and they tend preach violence in the name of the motherland, and Russia's government has been actively denying they're doing this.
The Americans are civilians being paid via a registered government contract who are tasked to reduce incitement of violence in other languages to influence and control non-Americans view of the US, and they tend to preach reduction of violence, and US's government does not deny they're doing this.
But yeah, I imagine there are other countries who also have propaganda systems that use fake online identities to spread certain messages. I wonder how many others will admit it (like the US does), or would rather act like these fake online identities don't exist (like Russia does).
Sure, they differ in terms of violence and whatnot ... but still, gubmint sock puppets gotta sock puppet!
Russian troops identified via social media in Ukraine
https://news.vice.com/video/selfie-soldiers-russia-checks-in-to-ukraine
(WARNING VIDEO CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES)
But don't worry it's not like Russia is gearing up "defensive capabilities" (oh wait, they are (http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN0OX0XJ20150617))