ArenaNet, the makers of Guild Wars 1 and 2, have said in the past that they want people to conduct themselves with some decency - both in choosing a character name and in text entered in chats. Well, GW2 had a pre-release and they've been banning people. Of course, people then started to make all kinds of wild claims about their bans, so ArenaNet took to Reddit to offer people who thought they were banned unfairly the chance to find out what they were banned for. Some have had their accounts hacked by gold farmers already. A few actually gave their in-game names and had the details posted publicly. Not surprisingly, many of the "public outcriers" havent' bothered to put their name in and ask for the suspension reason, knowing full well what they did that got them banned.
http://kotaku.com/5938485/reasons-you-may-be-suspended-from-guild-wars-2-holocaust-jokes-racist-insults-etc
Reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/yxx3m/suspensions_for_offensive_names_and_inappropriate/
Good on ArenaNet for pushing back for common decency. I'm sure they'll do fine in sales, especially as female players and parents of underage players start hearing about ArenaNets pursuit of decency in chat.
Yeah, but where does it end? When do they start putting people on the @%&# list for mentioning competitors or other things that the company doesn't like (such as client mods). I know it's their playground and all that but jeez.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Yeah, but where does it end? When do they start putting people on the @%&# list for mentioning competitors or other things that the company doesn't like (such as client mods). I know it's their playground and all that but jeez.
That would go against their Common Decency ideals. If they were to start doing that, they'd likely lose business.
It depends on how draconian it is I guess, personally speaking I like it when devs just let gamers figure it out on their own. If you hit pub servers for some games it can range anywhere from being a filth-stained wasteland to a polite and fun amusement park, but sometimes you want the former and not the latter EVERY TIME (and vice versa). If things are particularly bad you see gamers get together and create communities with their own rules and morals and way about themselves, this is where the real community nature of online gaming comes from, actually banding together because of common goals / play styles.
I dunno. I don't think there's any excuse to be a complete dick head like some of the gamers. I really don't have any problem with racist sexist ass-hats being banned from any game.
I 'unno, I read some of the Reddit thread and in all instances of statements-caused-suspensions, I completely agree. I also actively avoid online games because the high prevalence of bigotry, racism, and misogyny that is to be found in them. People act completely different behind a screen than they would face-to-face.
Hell, I tried out TF2 on the Xbox a long while back; I was clearly on my first day of playing, yet some idiot felt the need to message me not only about how he pwned me (sure, good for him), but also about how I was the scrotum of a black man who engaged in homosexual intercourse with a white jewish man. At this point I'd placed for 45 minutes, so it's not like we'd been arch-enemies for weeks or something.
Anyway, I think we'll see Guild Wars win out on the decency front, and because of it have a long life as customers will be more loyal.
This is exactly what I'm saying though, you don't want to play pub servers with all the BS find a group, it's better for you and it's better for the game community (i.e. it actually forms a game community).
Regardless, most MMOs have moderation systems that prevent names using slurs and spamming crap in global chat, but I really have to wonder what's going on in the pre-release that's causing so much of a stir. If it's THIS much noise before the game has even dropped for the majority of its userbase imagine what it's going to be like in a week or so from now.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 02:44:44 PM
This is exactly what I'm saying though, you don't want to play pub servers with all the BS find a group, it's better for you and it's better for the game community (i.e. it actually forms a game community).
Regardless, most MMOs have moderation systems that prevent names using slurs and spamming crap in global chat, but I really have to wonder what's going on in the pre-release that's causing so much of a stir. If it's THIS much noise before the game has even dropped for the majority of its userbase imagine what it's going to be like in a week or so from now.
Maybe they'll get their own site like: http://whywasibanned.com/
append:
I don't really think it should be up to the decent players to put up with the ass-hats. Essentially the decent people get punished just for playing, rather than the ass-hats getting punished for being ass-hats.
The reality is that asshats exist and as good a mod system you can build, the universe will build better asshats. It's far better to discourage bad behaviour by using peer pressure than legally binding mandate, at least in my experience.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:01:11 PM
The reality is that asshats exist and as good a mod system you can build, the universe will build better asshats. It's far better to discourage bad behaviour by using peer pressure than legally binding mandate, at least in my experience.
Eh. Some people actually will stop being ass hats if they have a reason not to be. But the true ass hats will never stop being ass hats. Those are the ones that need to be kicked.
From personal experience I have to disagree, I've seen people get ostracised for being jerks on servers for bad behaviour by other players over global chat, the other players will just outright ignore them and either they go away or they start playing properly. Way better than getting a moderator involved, plus you make them feel like crap for being idiots, no waiting for "mommy" to show up and "do something".
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Yeah, but where does it end? When do they start putting people on the @%&# list for mentioning competitors or other things that the company doesn't like (such as client mods). I know it's their playground and all that but jeez.
"common" decency has become uncommon. Truly we live in an age where "indecent?
you'll know it when you see it!" is actually a pretty good guideline, cuz some stuff so totally crosses the line d'obvious.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:32:41 PM
From personal experience I have to disagree, I've seen people get ostracised for being jerks on servers for bad behaviour by other players over global chat, the other players will just outright ignore them and either they go away or they start playing properly. Way better than getting a moderator involved, plus you make them feel like crap for being idiots, no waiting for "mommy" to show up and "do something".
Common Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
There is no such thing as
common decency as it turns out that everyone is an individual.
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
Then again there are odd ducks that wander the internet with the Sword of Righteousness
TM trying to "clean up all this horrible freedom", but who are they, and what gives them this right?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
There is no such thing as common decency as it turns out that everyone is an individual.
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
Then again there are odd ducks that wander the internet with the Sword of RighteousnessTM trying to "clean up all this horrible freedom", but who are they, and what gives them this right?
They own the servers?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
I dunno. I just hate having to put up with ass-hats these days. I used to think it was better to just put up with them. But fsck that. I have better things to do. As to the new account thing, they would have to re-buy the game. How often do you think they would buy another copy just to be a dick to someone? And do it over and over as they continue to get banned?
So if a guy was smearing his poo all over the handles on the LRT, would you prefer everyone gives him the evil eye or even a verbal scolding until he stops, or would you prefer that the LRT cops come in, grab him under each arm, and eject him from the train?
In truth, I'd prefer to see _both_ happening - the crowd representing society should make it clear he's stepping over the bounds and the cops should come in and remove him from the situation if he hasn't already stopped.
And from the things I've read people complain about in WoW chat, yes, it sounds like the verbal equivalent of smearing poo on frequently-touched surfaces - hate speech meant purely to get a reaction, for the fun of seeing said reaction.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
Then again there are odd ducks that wander the internet with the Sword of RighteousnessTM trying to "clean up all this horrible freedom", but who are they, and what gives them this right?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
This sounds like, "This is how it's always been, so why try to change it?". ArenaNet isn't trying to clean the whole internet of it's "horrible freedom", they're trying to provide a more friendly play environment in their massively-online game by giving those who aren't friendly a reason to rethink their stance. They're also saying that to partake in the game they run servers for, you have to act online like what a reasonable person would expect you to act like in a real-world situation.
As far as not using the Sword of Righteousness, I have to ask, if you don't believe in banning, why have you ever locked a thread on these forums? Isn't that basically the same as the 72 hour suspensions ArenaNet has been handing out to people for insulting other players, i.e. a form of playing mommy-cop?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PMbut who are they, and what gives them this right?
They own the servers?
Nope talking about people who operate outside a given system and lobby for changes even though they aren't a contributing part of it.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
I dunno. I just hate having to put up with ass-hats these days. I used to think it was better to just put up with them. But fsck that. I have better things to do. As to the new account thing, they would have to re-buy the game. How often do you think they would buy another copy just to be a dick to someone? And do it over and over as they continue to get banned?
This is where it all comes down though. When people say they want someone else to look out for their best interests, those interests are assumed to be the same when they may not be, but that's what those people have given up.
In the case of internet bullying it usually goes far beyond a single vector, but still, a dedicated bully is prepared for account termination on something like an MMO and will certainly continue the battle no matter how many times they are banned.
Quote from: Thorin on August 28, 2012, 03:58:51 PM
So if a guy was smearing his poo all over the handles on the LRT, would you prefer everyone gives him the evil eye or even a verbal scolding until he stops, or would you prefer that the LRT cops come in, grab him under each arm, and eject him from the train?
In truth, I'd prefer to see _both_ happening - the crowd representing society should make it clear he's stepping over the bounds and the cops should come in and remove him from the situation if he hasn't already stopped.
And from the things I've read people complain about in WoW chat, yes, it sounds like the verbal equivalent of smearing poo on frequently-touched surfaces - hate speech meant purely to get a reaction, for the fun of seeing said reaction.
Actually yes, I'd REALLY REALLY prefer if people spoke out about other doing stuff like that because right now most people turn a blind eye and assume it's someone else's problem. That person gets caught by the transit cops and fined and maybe even banned but that person is back in there doing the same thing again the next day, maybe they get caught again and again but the system is so open you can't fully stop someone.
To take a better example from the real world take Prohibition vs Anti-Smoking campaigns. In the span of 15 years violence and crime escalated and didn't actually stop many people from getting alcohol even though there was EXTREME enforcement by police and government. Conversely anti-smoking has actually made smoking become a socially unacceptable activity in public within the span of about 25 years. No crackdowns from the Feds, no guns a blazin', just a slow and steady procession of careful engineering to make it something the average person doesn't want to do. It got to the point where most people were okay with the banning of smoking from public areas at a civic level (and probably soon enough at a Provincial one, maybe even Federal eventually).
So yes, I'd rather people take the subtle approach and make it as "not cool" as possible for people to be jerks in video games than to have some external force actively suppress it, all that does is sweep it under the carpet it doesn't change behaviour.
Quote from: Thorin on August 28, 2012, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
Then again there are odd ducks that wander the internet with the Sword of RighteousnessTM trying to "clean up all this horrible freedom", but who are they, and what gives them this right?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
This sounds like, "This is how it's always been, so why try to change it?". ArenaNet isn't trying to clean the whole internet of it's "horrible freedom", they're trying to provide a more friendly play environment in their massively-online game by giving those who aren't friendly a reason to rethink their stance. They're also saying that to partake in the game they run servers for, you have to act online like what a reasonable person would expect you to act like in a real-world situation.
As far as not using the Sword of Righteousness, I have to ask, if you don't believe in banning, why have you ever locked a thread on these forums? Isn't that basically the same as the 72 hour suspensions ArenaNet has been handing out to people for insulting other players, i.e. a form of playing mommy-cop?
1. That's not what I'm saying, MMOs have always had filters on user names and chat, what I'm wondering is how transparent their system is or what's wrong with it that so many people are already screaming about it.
2. Locking threads is completely different than banning, you can still use the forums, you can start a new thread, you can keep talking...
Do I feel that any one user should be permanently banned? No.
Do I feel that a user should be banned for picking a jerk-ass user name? No.
Do I feel that a user should be banned for cussing? No.
Do I feel that other users should sort out their relationships without me having to ban someone? Yes.
Does Papa love Mambo? Yes.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
Quote from: Thorin on August 28, 2012, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
Then again there are odd ducks that wander the internet with the Sword of RighteousnessTM trying to "clean up all this horrible freedom", but who are they, and what gives them this right?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 03:49:08 PMCommon Trolls will often go away if you ignore them. But some will keep on keepin on no matter what you do.
Bullying is for sure something that is a problem but ISN'T solved by banning accounts (new account, continued bullying).
This sounds like, "This is how it's always been, so why try to change it?". ArenaNet isn't trying to clean the whole internet of it's "horrible freedom", they're trying to provide a more friendly play environment in their massively-online game by giving those who aren't friendly a reason to rethink their stance. They're also saying that to partake in the game they run servers for, you have to act online like what a reasonable person would expect you to act like in a real-world situation.
As far as not using the Sword of Righteousness, I have to ask, if you don't believe in banning, why have you ever locked a thread on these forums? Isn't that basically the same as the 72 hour suspensions ArenaNet has been handing out to people for insulting other players, i.e. a form of playing mommy-cop?
1. That's not what I'm saying, MMOs have always had filters on user names and chat, what I'm wondering is how transparent their system is or what's wrong with it that so many people are already screaming about it.
See whywasibanned.com
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
Do I feel that any one user should be permanently banned? No.
Even if that user is being incredibly inflammatory in-game, and on the forums? using incredibly hate filled speech, and doesn't stop when asked by people and mods?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:26:42 PM
See whywasibanned.com
You understand that's a humour site right? That there may be people getting banned over trivialities right?
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:26:42 PMQuote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
Do I feel that any one user should be permanently banned? No.
Even if that user is being incredibly inflammatory in-game, and on the forums? using incredibly hate filled speech, and doesn't stop when asked by people and mods?
Yes because it doesn't solve anything. I feel I've said this a number of times now, maybe I'm not being clear:
Banning does not solve bad behaviour, it delays it.
:)
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:39:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:26:42 PM
See whywasibanned.com
You understand that's a humour site right? That there may be people getting banned over trivialities right?
Sure, but its examples of stupid trolls actually getting upset about being banned for doing stuff they knew they would get banned for.
That's the reason its funny.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:39:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:26:42 PMQuote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
Do I feel that any one user should be permanently banned? No.
Even if that user is being incredibly inflammatory in-game, and on the forums? using incredibly hate filled speech, and doesn't stop when asked by people and mods?
Yes because it doesn't solve anything. I feel I've said this a number of times now, maybe I'm not being clear:
Banning does not solve bad behaviour, it delays it.
:)
More like it moves the bad people off onto other games. Bad people will be bad yo.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
There is no such thing as common decency as it turns out that everyone is an individual.
I guess what I'm kind of getting at is people online who have much more direct and constant influx of a wildly extreme spectrum of content learn to tolerate and use self discretion rather than fear things they don't understand.
When I play live poker there is
definitely a wide diversity in the "class/culture/decency" level of my tablemates, I have certainly learned to tolerate ... "differences of opinion/personality".
Just sometimes a dbag is a dbag, ain't nothing subjective about it. ;)
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:42:26 PMSure, but its examples of stupid trolls actually getting upset about being banned for doing stuff they knew they would get banned for.
And the function of this site is to shame trolls, which is something I support BUT it has nothing to do with the transparency of the system or the people who manipulate it which is what I was talking about.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:42:26 PMMore like it moves the bad people off onto other games. Bad people will be bad yo.
I think that's a sweeping generalization not based on actual experience. I've played a lot of games online, mostly pub servers or random matchmaking on consoles when someone is being a jerk it's because they want attention nearly 100% of the time. If you don't give it to them they disconnect because they get bored.
Of course some people get their jimmies rustled easily online and generally make things worse by reciprocating.
If someone gets
really annoying and/or disruptive ban their ass from the local server or put them on your block list, why bother running to Valve or Microsoft to get that user banned from the network? For the record I find those type of people are in the extreme minority.
Quote from: Darren Dirt on August 28, 2012, 04:55:22 PMWhen I play live poker there is definitely a wide diversity in the "class/culture/decency" level of my tablemates, I have certainly learned to tolerate ... "differences of opinion/personality".
Just sometimes a dbag is a dbag, ain't nothing subjective about it. ;)
Exactly, but you wouldn't ban them from playing poker at all casinos. Maybe there's a table with nothing but the same kind of dbag and that's the place where they're happy and out of the way.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 05:02:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:42:26 PMSure, but its examples of stupid trolls actually getting upset about being banned for doing stuff they knew they would get banned for.
And the function of this site is to shame trolls, which is something I support BUT it has nothing to do with the transparency of the system or the people who manipulate it which is what I was talking about.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2012, 04:42:26 PMMore like it moves the bad people off onto other games. Bad people will be bad yo.
I think that's a sweeping generalization not based on actual experience. I've played a lot of games online, mostly pub servers or random matchmaking on consoles when someone is being a jerk it's because they want attention nearly 100% of the time. If you don't give it to them they disconnect because they get bored.
I used to think the same thing. And now I really don't want to have to do that anymore. Why is it up to me to put up with their garbage? Why should I have my day ruined for their sake? Rights of their fist and all that jazz.
Want to be a constant prick? Better be ready to get banned for it.
Okay, I see this as more smoking than drinking, i.e. spouting bigoted hate-speech is not something that the general public desperately wants access to but the coppers are standin' in the way of (a la drinking and Prohibition), but rather it's something that the general public desperately wants pushed to the fringes so they don't have to deal with it in their face all the time (a la smoking).
There are both societal pressures for not smoking as well as a bunch of laws about where you are / are not allowed to smoke now. If you smoke in your car with kids in your back seat, yes, you can be arrested (more likely to get ticketed). If you light up in a hospital, you can get ticketed, and you can get picked up and shoved out the door. In my view, this is very analogous to what ArenaNet is doing - most people don't want bigoted hate-speech spouted at them, ArenaNet has rules about it, ArenaNet is enforcing those rules.
I also want to point out these are 72 hour suspensions, not permanent bans. I'm sure permanent bans will eventually follow for those people who don't alter their behaviour. Of course, those people who are getting suspended are making huge noise, but then generally won't say what their username is because they know they will be publicly shamed when everyone finds out why they were suspended. Most likely the reports and noise about the suspensions are much exaggerated past what's actually been handed out (the internet occasionally blows things out of proportion). I point out the difference because in this thread we're swaying back and forth between temporary suspension and permanent bans as we talk, and these are definitely two different things.
As for banning the problem user from the local server, we can't do that because these are ArenaNets servers; but aren't you advocating here to do exactly what ArenaNet is doing? Have the server admin ban/suspend the user?
As for blocking the problem user, is that possible in an MMO? Can you tell your client to not show user xXReamYourAzzXx in the view window? How would that resolve during a combat? Could they hurt you? Could you hurt them?
As for "all the dbags at one poker table", ArenaNet has explained that they work based on reports (same as most MMOs, I presume), so if at some point a server springs up that says, "all your hate-filled bigoted speech, bring it, we won't report it", you could expect not to get suspended as you could expect no one to report you there.
I've also read several posts from people who play / played WoW wishing that Blizzard would enforce the same rules of conduct in WoW. Note that WoW has pretty much the same code of conduct that players are supposed to abide by, but Blizzard mostly doesn't bother enforcing them, at least according to these posts. That's not surprising - enforcement is a lot of work. One of the interesting points raised in these posts were that some of the people getting suspended probably don't even realize the language they're using, they're so used to it from WoW, so they're genuinely surprised that when they call someone a "gag faggot" or suggest someone is lower than a mental patient if they can't accomplish task X that anyone would take offense. But c'mon, that's not something you'd say with your mom in the room.
Anyway, if it's so easy to influence douchebags online to get them to play nice, why are we moving to a whitelist on our minecraft server? In my case, I'm requesting it because I know it's not easy to make people act decent and civil when online unless you can show there's a clear consequence to not acting decent and civil, and it's easier to just not allow people on until someone vouches for them.
Quote from: Thorin on August 28, 2012, 06:49:03 PM
Anyway, if it's so easy to influence douchebags online to get them to play nice, why are we moving to a whitelist on our minecraft server? In my case, I'm requesting it because I know it's not easy to make people act decent and civil when online unless you can show there's a clear consequence to not acting decent and civil, and it's easier to just not allow people on until someone vouches for them.
A bit offtopic, but I noticed the problems first after some of your brood came on. Maybe one of their friends mentioned the server to someone?
Going back to my original statement; Who makes these decency rules and how are they enforced. Where are the checks and balances. How does suspending players actually serve the community?
From the sounds of things NCSoft are being fairly heavy handed suspending people for even slight infractions during the pre-release in the hope that it will make things friendly by force, I've yet to see this be a sustainable pattern anywhere and it does nothing to address the real problems.
Sure I believe in banning/suspending people if they deserve it for actions they commit like cheating, damaging the game or griefing (or what have you), but for @%&# they say over group chat? User names? Ridiculous!
I know NCSoft has the right to do this, again, their sandbox their rules. But at the same time there is something distinctly hollow about a community that relies on morality police to keep things in line for them rather than maintaining their own level of dignity.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 05:02:07 PM
Quote from: Darren Dirt on August 28, 2012, 04:55:22 PMWhen I play live poker there is definitely a wide diversity in the "class/culture/decency" level of my tablemates, I have certainly learned to tolerate ... "differences of opinion/personality".
Just sometimes a dbag is a dbag, ain't nothing subjective about it. ;)
Exactly, but you wouldn't ban them from playing poker at all casinos. Maybe there's a table with nothing but the same kind of dbag and that's the place where they're happy and out of the way.
Quote from: Thorin on August 28, 2012, 06:49:03 PM
As for "all the dbags at one poker table", ArenaNet has explained that they work based on reports (same as most MMOs, I presume), so if at some point a server springs up that says, "all your hate-filled bigoted speech, bring it, we won't report it", you could expect not to get suspended as you could expect no one to report you there.
In a public card room there are rules, and consequences of violating those rules. When dbaggery turns into abusive vitriole or threats of abuse, the houseman steps in and temp-bans are warned and eventually handed out. When the dbaggery is less obvious, the players will often do the Scarlet Letter type of thing, verbal shunning, continuing conversations with the players to the left and right of the dbag, heck I've seen an entire table decide to take a "smoke break" at the same time because of one drunk a-hole who was also slowing down the game -- the houseman walked up when the dealer pointed out the "third man walking" rule, and the dealer finally spoke up about the dbag's behavior and the houseman had a Chat which resulted in a change of behavior. (Some of these dbags have perma-bans from other poker rooms and so don't want to burn their last bridge ;) )
If it was a private home game, I'm sure something similar would happen -- in pretty much any group activity, it's usually a group consensus about what communication style or direct behavior is unacceptable in the current community of participants, with some person in a position of authority who makes the final call. Whoever is "in charge" usually implements a punishment of some kind against the violator, instead of making it so the victims of the violator are forced to end their fun (or continue in the midst of the dbaggery).
More smoking than drinking, for sure.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
Going back to my original statement; Who makes these decency rules and how are they enforced. Where are the checks and balances. How does suspending players actually serve the community?
They've been written into the Code of Conduct that players agree to; clearly they've been made by ArenaNet. They're enforced by having ArenaNet employees investigate reports and then deciding whether to do nothing, warn, or suspend players. Suspending players sends a clear message that ArenaNet does not intend to allow GuildWars' public chat to be free-for-all where bigoted hate-speech, name-calling, and personal attacks and insults are tolerated. This serves the community by reducing the aggravation felt by its members whenever they need to use public chat.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
From the sounds of things NCSoft are being fairly heavy handed suspending people for even slight infractions during the pre-release in the hope that it will make things friendly by force, I've yet to see this be a sustainable pattern anywhere and it does nothing to address the real problems.
Read the Reddit link; a few people actually
did ask what they did wrong and were answered, and in all those cases I would say that they were spouting hate that they would never have spouted in a real-life situation.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
Sure I believe in banning/suspending people if they deserve it for actions they commit like cheating, damaging the game or griefing (or what have you), but for @%&# they say over group chat? User names? Ridiculous!
This isn't for group chat, this is for public (server-wide) chat or for private messages directed at users who were not interested in being berated or insulted. And in an MMO, your username is visible wherever you go, so something like "nuckyoufigger" is going to stand out like a sore thumb.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
I know NCSoft has the right to do this, again, their sandbox their rules. But at the same time there is something distinctly hollow about a community that relies on morality police to keep things in line for them rather than maintaining their own level of dignity.
I have quite the opposite view; I think a community that does nothing to keep itself adhered to some set of standards is no community at all. Sure, the question of what the standards are and who sets them comes into play, but that exact same question can be asked of
any law we live under in the real world. Seriously, try defining what "murder" is and the words "reasonable person" _will_ be part of that definition; and who decides what a "reasonable person" is?
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 28, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
Going back to my original statement; Who makes these decency rules and how are they enforced. Where are the checks and balances. How does suspending players actually serve the community?
From the sounds of things NCSoft are being fairly heavy handed suspending people for even slight infractions during the pre-release in the hope that it will make things friendly by force, I've yet to see this be a sustainable pattern anywhere and it does nothing to address the real problems.
Sure I believe in banning/suspending people if they deserve it for actions they commit like cheating, damaging the game or griefing (or what have you), but for @%&# they say over group chat? User names? Ridiculous!
I know NCSoft has the right to do this, again, their sandbox their rules. But at the same time there is something distinctly hollow about a community that relies on morality police to keep things in line for them rather than maintaining their own level of dignity.
We should probably agree to disagree. I don't like having to put up with some d-bag assaulting me and other people. Many times things those ass-hats say is /actually/ illegal. Threats and extreme verbal abuse is never a good thing, and should not be tolerated in any shape or form. I don't see anything wrong with giving out warnings early and often to head off the nastier @%&#.
And really, most complaints you're likely to even see are going to be so blown out of proportion because the people getting these warnings do that sort of thing. They be ass-hats, then complain loudly at getting punished for being ass-hats. Like some how they have a right to threaten and verbally abuse other people.
Well, not really; the rules of conduct are applied to the community not fostered by it, ideally the latter would preclude the need for the former.
Like I say I'm surprised that this is such a hot button issue already and it makes me wonder what's going on in there.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 11:38:22 AM
Well, not really; the rules of conduct are applied to the community not fostered by it, ideally the latter would preclude the need for the former.
Like I say I'm surprised that this is such a hot button issue already and it makes me wonder what's going on in there.
Typical internet ass-hats.
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg)
So you are of the opinion that someone standing on a street corner (that you pass every day) spouting threats and verbal abuse to everyone who walks by should never have a talking to by the police? Its the same thing. Both are public. Both involve the same ass-hatery.
Yes, I come from a strange world where I can tolerate someone else's crazy bull@%&# ranting.
I'd much rather live in a world where people feel free to say what think no matter how @%&#ed up it is than have them muzzled due to some form of societal consensus.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 11:49:20 AM
Yes, I come from a strange world where I can tolerate someone else's crazy bull@%&# ranting.
I'd much rather live in a world where people feel free to say what think no matter how @%&#ed up it is than have them muzzled due to some form of societal consensus.
So threats and abuse are fine? what about physical violence? I personally don't see much difference between physical and mental abuse. Both are equally bad.
Those are two completely different things.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
Those are two completely different things.
Not to me they aren't. Abuse is abuse.
I suppose "Mental Disability" is also not a real disability in your view?
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2012, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
Those are two completely different things.
Not to me they aren't. Abuse is abuse.
I suppose "Mental Disability" is also not a real disability in your view?
Talking all day about robbing a bank is different than actually robbing a bank, should you be arrested for talking about it? Harassment is much more than spewing filth on a street corner or spamming global chat with obscenity.
I don't even know how you got to the second part, don't put words into my mouth.
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 12:14:09 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2012, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
Those are two completely different things.
Not to me they aren't. Abuse is abuse.
I suppose "Mental Disability" is also not a real disability in your view?
Talking all day about robbing a bank is different than actually robbing a bank, should you be arrested for talking about it? Harassment is much more than spewing filth on a street corner or spamming global chat with obscenity.
I don't even know how you got to the second part, don't put words into my mouth.
Because you don't seem to think mental abuse is a thing. Which would lead me to think that you don't think anything "mental" related is a thing either.
I was rather maliciously bullied (mentally and physically, but mostly mentally) in school (not to mention various mental games my brother played, and my dad being a drunk half my life). The bruises from various encounters went away, but the mental marks? I'm still dealing with them to this day, and will continue for quite some time. Even physical violence is a form of mental violence. In the end it leads to the same place.
Anyone who thinks mental/verbal abuse isn't at least as serious as physical abuse is
very misguided.
I need to take a step away from this thread for a bit. >:(
Quote from: Thorin on August 29, 2012, 11:19:28 AM
I think a community that does nothing to keep itself adhered to some set of standards is no community at all.
well put!
Quote from: Mr. Analog on August 29, 2012, 12:14:09 PM
Talking all day about robbing a bank is different than actually robbing a bank, should you be arrested for talking about it?
During lunch I was watching some Louis CK videos. He's still not in prison for the things he says and says he thinks about (including towards/about his kids (http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2012/06/a-collection-quotes-on-louis-c-k-s-parenting-philosophies/3/)). Obviously talking about stuff != doing that stuff. I think in privately owned communities there's an expectation by most "commonly decent" participants that the community will not become a place of offensiveness and discomfort and outright abuse (including verbal). The internet gaming community is a bit of an abnormality compared to most of the RL, though.
So this hot thread gonna cool down now I guess... (sorry Tom, I'm also really sensitive to verbal stuff even when it's clearly not gonna escalate to physical ; definitely something I've been recently dealing with directly in group).
Mental abuse like you are talking about is the result of harassment, not free speech. There is a distinction between the two.
My take of the statements that people have been suspended for has been that it is not free speech, but rather hate speech, generally aimed at demeaning and insulting those it has been aimed at. This is based mainly on reading the two thousand or so replies to the Reddit thread I linked at the start, but also on reading some other comments at Kotaku and on personal blogs.
Maybe you haven't read what people are _actually_ getting suspended for, and are instead going by what the (allegedly) suspended have _claimed_ they're being suspended for? One of the problems that has been reported now is that there are people claiming to have been suspended who don't even appear to have an account, just because they appear to want to join in causing mayhem.
Oh I read the Reddit link, I read the original article and I've been following with great amusement comments I'm seeing in various gaming forums (as a former GW player I've held some interest in this game).
The main point that I've seen so far is that the system in place is trying to automate the work of moderators, frankly I'm surprised how widespread this is already (I keep saying this), it makes me wonder what the heck is going on.
I'm sure more than a few users are being legitimately suspended/banned for harassing people no doubt, but from what I've read some users are getting suspensions for relatively innocuous comments or other more nebulous reasons.
This totally smacks of overloaded moderators who are cracking down hard on anything.
Of course I'm not in the pre-release and don't have access to the inside scoop so I can't say if this is just people squawking loudly over nothing or what. The original GW didn't have any major issues with jerks, so, like I say I'm curious about WTF is really going on in there.
I'm betting its loud squawking. It's been popping up more and more in the gaming sphere. Some people think they have a right to things, or to do things, and when they find out they don't, they scream bloody murder.