Gas prices up

[Fedora Gal]

Well that's all fine and dandy for those of you who live in the city but what of us country folks. I have a car that's decent on gas 550km per tank highway driving, but I have to fill it every two weeks at least and at $2/L that's gonna be too expensive for me. I don't earn enough to be forking out $200 on gas + $320 car payments each month. I can't buy a scooter 'cause I highway drive, and I'm already paying for one car so no point in buying a smart car. And guess what, no access to public transit either, closest access point for public transit is 20min away and that's how long it takes me to drive to work.



I don't mind the gas prices being around $1/L but their's been reports today that in some areas the gas is up to $1.20 already, just like you guys are hearing. We're still not as bad as europe; when I was there last summer they were at 2 pound which is almost $5 CAD/L. But hell, we have a lot more land to cover! *grumbles*

[Fedora Gal]

Just came across this article on MSN...everyone is blaming somebody else for the gas price hike it seems.



http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1125576643773_51?hub=TopStories

[Shayne]

Hmm, you're taking mass transit on International Talk-Like-A-Pirate Day?  Is there also something else at hand?

Can i plead the fifth?



...oh, and its $1.130 in edmonton, so $1.095 if you get the 3.5 off.

[Darren Dirt]

I can't remember if it it was this thread*, or another one, that talked about fuel-efficient cars, hybrids, etc.



This thing looks pretty different: APTERA -- not a "flying car", but dayum that thing LOOKS like an airplane!

http://www.aptera.com/look.php

How about the Aptera.

www.aptera.com

Light, cheap, efficient and inspired by aeroplane design. and funded by these folks.

(found via a comment here.)


more info on the Aptera here:
http://www.aptera.com/details.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_X_Prize#Competing_teams
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25239861@N03/

The Founders Mind: Thoughts from the pen of Steve Fambro 

"Open up any book on automotive design and styling. Look at how they begin drawing a new concept vehicle. They almost always start with a rectangle!!!! From there, they [the designers] begin shaving off here, trimming a little there, smoothing and nudging until they have something that they like. It's like baking a cake and throwing in random ingredients because they "look" nice to the stylist, but with no idea or care for how the cake will taste. That's crazy!

Here's the really crazy part--almost everybody does it! The art and process of automotive styling has not evolved to our modern world and is still as it was in the 1930's when it was first defined by Harley Earl. Why is it crazy? Because about 65% of the gasoline we use as a country is used by our cars just to push the air out of the way due to their *styling*, or more correctly, the high aerodynamic drag due to their styling. Now, knowing that, why wouldn't we design cars to push the least amount of air out of the way as possible? (........silence........crickets)

This understanding of designing for low drag is fundamental to Aptera's core. It enables Aptera to chase its goal of designing the most efficient vehicles in the world. Now, it is no secret that the 2e is streamlined just as many birds and fish are. There is a very close connection here: nature abhors inefficiency, as does Aptera. Birds and fish have evolved for millennia to expend the least amount of energy while moving through the air or water as swiftly as possible. So in many ways, Aptera looked to Mother Nature and simply re-discovered what has evolved for millennia.

Now, how does all of this equal 100+ miles per gallon? Well, it's quite simple. By radically lowering the drag of our vehicle, we more than triple the efficiency compared to any other vehicle on the road. But we go further. By designing for a streamlined three wheel vehicle instead of a boxy four, we lower the rolling resistance and the weight of the vehicle, and therefore their associated losses significantly.

Finally, by using composites instead of heavy steel (last century's material), we cut the weight of the vehicle by 50%. All of this means that the Aptera has less drag and is more efficient than any car, motorcycle, scooter or even a bicycle at high speeds and therefore is capable of extraordinary miles per gallon.

So, the next time you look at a shark, hawk, fighter plane or the Aptera, take note--it is their smooth shape that lets them slip through the air using the least amount of energy possible. 

and similar to the Aptera: http://www.myxpcar.com/



**upon reflection, IIRC the thread I'm thinking of was all about Google and hybrid testing, this one.

[Mr. Analog]

DD, that is one way-out car design.

I approve! haha

[Darren Dirt]

Aptera and XPcar are cool looking, but the specs on the Tesla Roadster are unbelievable.

If I could afford the 99k USD I would so totally get one today (er, I mean order one, since they're not actually on the market yet). Maybe once the "sedan" series are in production (2011 or 2012 or so) it'll be in the cards for me...


ALso check out CNN belting out the Obama-alternatives-to-fossil-fuels-are-needed song...
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/04/autos/bailout_hybrids/index.htm?postversion=2008120516

[Darren Dirt]

Aptera and XPcar are cool looking, but the specs on the Tesla Roadster are unbelievable.

4 years later it is finally Launching (The Future Is Now...)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/9681425/Tesla-Model-S-the-car-of-the-future.html
"In the future, this new Tesla Model S electric car might just be remembered alongside the Mini or the Ford Model T as an automotive game-changer. ...few new cars have ever combined so many radical innovations in one new design. In doing so the Model S -- US-built, but in Silicon Valley, not Detroit -- tells you a lot about the car of the future, in a car you can buy now."

moar specs @ http://forums.righteouswrath.com/index.php/topic,6454.msg41507.html#msg41507

[Thorin]

Hmm, I don't think it's gonna be like a Model T.  Maybe like an early Bugatti or Pierce-Arrow or an early Cadillac - big, powerful, luxurious.

There are lots of upsides to Tesla's design, but one significant downside is 1,000 pounds of battery that give you under perfect lab conditions 424 kilometers of driving and that takes 5 hours to charge.  We all know batteries wear out and claims of how long a charge lasts are exaggerated, so assume that you're only going to get 300kms out of that 5 hour drive.  Have fun going to Canmore, it'll take an extra 5 hours as you recharge in Airdrie.

They should've added solar panels on the roof and a small gas-powered generator to recharge the batteries on long drives.  Oh, and gearing would certainly help keep the electric engine near its peak torque.  Yes, there's only one gear: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs "Single speed fixed gear with 9.73:1 reduction ratio".  Why do you want your engine near its peak torque?  Because torque determines ability to accelerate.

[Mr. Analog]

Model T's success was being a car for the average working shmoe, which is the opposite of the Tesla or at least a long way away from the current Tesla.

Model T started as an affordable vehicle and got cheaper over it's 20 year production span starting at $850 (or $20,954.37 in 2011 dollars) and ending at $260 (or $3,298.77 in 2011 dollars)

Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T#Price
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Tesla may become memorable IF it can sustain itself and become a true success story, but until that happens it is an oddity like the DeLorean.

[Darren Dirt]

Hmm, I don't think it's gonna be like a Model T.  Maybe like an early Bugatti or Pierce-Arrow or an early Cadillac - big, powerful, luxurious.

Model T's success was being a car for the average working shmoe, which is the opposite of the Tesla or at least a long way away from the current Tesla.

I see both of your points, however I think what that article is saying is that it will be T-like in the sense of being a trailblazer, a trend-starter, pointing the way the future will go.

Obviously it's out of the price range of most folks, however considering the bells and whistles included in the model described in the linked article it's a pretty damn reasonable price... and gives one reason to hope for the future of these kind of vehicular options.

there's only one gear... Why do you want your engine near its peak torque?  Because torque determines ability to accelerate.

early in this thread there's a video re. its insane acceleration -- made possible by there being only one gear.

Anyone who played Simpsons Hit+Run on Gamecube would experience a flashback imo (Prof. Frink's electric car; holy glayvin does that baby accelerate quickly!)

[Mr. Analog]

Well that's why I added the bit at the bottom, it will only be a trailblazer if it actually blazes trails which at this point I assume is to become a successful electric car, which so far remains to be seen.

[Darren Dirt]

true.

oh ps: oops the "0-60 in FOUR SECONDS" video was linkedin this thread:
Google wants to make driving cheaper for you
and that video was from 2006.


this one is way better, it's from 2011 plus it doesn't have the strange 80s-esque NewWave music in the background too...
Tesla Roadster Sport >>> Porsche 911 Turbo

[Thorin]

Model T wasn't a trailblazer or innovator at all, Ford kept it really simple even as other companies around him innovated (electric vs handcranked starter, electric vs kerosene lighting, hand-operated vs foot-operated gear selection, hell, colour-choice vs any-choice-as-long-as-its-black).  Doing this allowed him to make the car cheaper and cheaper all the time while still making a profit.  A good comparison for the Model T is the Tata Nano.

Pierce-Arrow, Rolls Royce, Cadillac, Bugatti, Benz, those were the trailblazers and innovators in the early 1900s.  Many of the things we consider normal now came out of their engineering practices.  Because of their huge investment in innovation they've always stayed expensive (well, there aren't any new Pierce-Arrows).  Tesla is shaping up to fit into this same mold - high-priced with the newest technologies available.

So is this a high-priced vehicle?

At the current price for the Tesla Model S with the 85kwh battery (which is what all the discussion about driving range has been based on) is $80k US.  Lets assume it goes dollar-for-dollar in Canada, that's $1,600 per month for a 5 year loan at 7%.  Or I could buy a Chevy half-ton pickup truck, crew cab, for $38k, for $760 per month.  So the difference is the cost of gas vs electricity.  Tesla says (http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts) assume 188Wh/km, which is 18.8kWh/100km.  Chevrolet says (http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/vehicles/chevrolet/silverado/compare-options-and-specifications#specifications) 12.1L/100km.

So for 2,000km/month:
Tesla Model S: $1,600/month + (18.8kWh/100km x 2,000km/month x $0.10/kWh) = ($1,600 + $37.60) / month = $1,637.60
Chevy Silverado LT 5.3L: $760/month + (12.1L/100km x 2,000km/month x $1.25/L) = ($760 + $302.50) / month = $1,062.50

About $575 less per month to have a 4WD with much bigger storage, a much longer driving range, a much shorter refuel time, and a much more established parts supply.  Buying and operating (very important, just owning it but not using it is ridiculous) a Tesla is definitely not a value proposition but rather a grand lifestyle statement at this point, just like the Prius was when it first came out and just like the first Bugattis were when they came out.

[Darren Dirt]

Model T wasn't a trailblazer or innovator at all, Ford kept it really simple even as other companies around him innovated ... Pierce-Arrow, Rolls Royce, Cadillac, Bugatti, Benz, those were the trailblazers and innovators in the early 1900s.  Many of the things we consider normal now came out of their engineering practices.  Because of their huge investment in innovation they've always stayed expensive (well, there aren't any new Pierce-Arrows).  Tesla is shaping up to fit into this same mold - high-priced with the newest technologies available.

WOW, I had no idea about all that! Interesting.



btw re. Prius, earlier today I did a quick Kjiji search and discovered someone in the Edmonon area is selling a 2002 for about $5300 ... and there's also a bunch for sale that are only 2 or 3 years old, for like 10k-15k ... the last few cab rides I took were in electric/hybrid vehicles and I gotta say it was pretty cool to accelerate so quickly and smoothly and quietly. The ride felt very Jetsons-like.

[Mr. Analog]

The Model-T's innovation was putting cheap cars in the hands of the public.