Subwoofer recommendations

[Thorin]

Yep, Harman Kardon is an excellent brand as well.  As for not hearing the sound out in the yard, I think that might have more to do with the walls in the way.  Try removing the walls.  Oh, wait, winter's coming...



Seriously, though, what part of the volume drops off quickly?  The sub-bass?  The bass?  The mid-range? The treble?  In car audio mid-range and treble is drastically altered and reduced by interfering objects such as seats and human body parts (for instance, speakers down low in the doors can be blocked by your legs).  If the mid-range and treble drops off more quickly than the bass and sub-bass, the problem will most likely be that there's no direct path from the speakers to your ears.



I'd almost suggest picking up some high-current switches and some outdoor speakers, running some speaker wire outside, and switching your main left and right speakers between inside and outside.  You'd have to look at the amount of amperage and voltage traveling over the wires and make sure your switches can handle it...

[Thorin]

Oh, and by "switching" I mean wiring the switches into the speaker wires so that you can select to have audio come from either the inside or the outside speakers.

[Thorin]

So, uhh, Ustauk, we didn't ever answer your question, did we?



I have a 10" downfiring Soundstage Stage 100 sub; nowadays they're called Stage 10, and they're no longer downfiring, unfortunately.  Its black casing blends in perfectly with the rest of the stereo stand, and most people don't realize it's there unless I point it out to them.



The crossover frequency is set using a knob, going from 50 Hertz to 150 Hertz.  I've got it set at about 100 Hertz, letting the rest of the speakers handle low-mid-range.



The built-in 150 watt amplifier has a level adjustment on the back, also a knob.  Level adjustment is supposed to be used to adjust how sensitive the amplifier is to the incoming signal.  If the signal is weak, the amplifier needs to be more sensitive.  If the signal is strong, the amplifier needs to be less sensitive.  Typically, signals below 1 volt are considered weak, signals above 2 volts are considered strong.  I've got mine set to in the middle, as I have no idea what my amplifier puts out on the Sub Out channel.  The bass is neither boomy nor missing, so I must be close to the mark.



When I bought it three years ago, it was $299 (boxing week special).  I would expect to pay about $400 to $500 for a sub like this now.  Because of my positive experience with this sub, I would suggest a similar sub for your system.  I can turn it loud enough that the neighbours across the street hear it while it's in my basement, but I don't usually do that  The power seems to be well-balanced with the rest of the system, which is a couple of cheaper tower and surround speakers getting fed from an 80 watt per channel amplifier.



From car audio I learned that you want anywhere from two to four times as much power going to your subwoofer as your all-range or mid-range/treble speakers.



So I hope all that helps.  And as far as buying the Polk Audio, well, did you like the one you had?  If so, get the Consumer Reports booklet and see if it has at least an average rating...

[Ustauk]

Thanks for all the advice.  I think I'm going to hit A&B and Futureshop tomorrow at lunch, and listen to a few subwoofers.

[Shayne]

downfiring = better?



i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not.  In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.

[Cova]

The entire volume range drops off quite quickly - I think its because (except for the sub) the speakers are all very small (about 6" high by a few wide and a few deep - outside dimensions, I don't remember the actual driver sizes).  They sound really great while yer in the middle of them all, and still pretty damn good if you're just near-by (say, in the kitchen), but go down in the basement (even right under them) or out of the house (even with all windows/doors open) and there's no volume left at all.



It's annoying when I want to be somewhere other than the 1/2 of my main floor that gets good sound coverage, but it's great for late-night movie watching - I can crank it up and not worry about neighbors at all.



And for reference - I paid $1000 for my receiver + 6.1 speaker setup.  The speakers alone were listed for $600 (5 satellites + center + sub) but I got the guy at future-shop down to .. $450 I think for the speakers.  With the quality I'm hearing from them I can't really recommend going with something more expensive (eg. $400 for just a sub)

[Thorin]

downfiring = better?



i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not.  In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.

From car audio, I learned that facing the subwoofer cone away from the listener made the source of the sound harder to pinpoint.  When it's hard to pinpoint the sound (and your brain tries to subconsciously), it becomes easier to believe that it's coming from the same place as all the visual cues you get from the movie.  This tends to increase your ability to suspend your disbelief, making the experience seem more real.



Downfiring and porting out the back instead of the front also reduces your ability to hear cone wuffle and port whistle, which might make an identical sub sound better purely because of the placement of it in the box.



A properly arranged and configured set of surround sound speakers does the same by ensuring that sounds that should be coming from a particular direction actually come from that direction; again, it is increasing your ability to suspend your disbelief.



Keep in mind with all my advice that I never claim to be an expert, though.  

[Ustauk]

Well, I decided to give Polk Audio one more try.  I'm getting this 12" sub, which is $275 from the place my workplace deals with (Futureshop sells it for $399).  I could have gotten a JBL 10" for the same price, but I figure any difference in build quality will be made up by the increase in power handling wattage.  I'll let you know how it works when it shows up in a few days (they deliver to my office).

[Thorin]

I would've gone for the JBL, m'self  Just from experience with their car audio components...



$275's a good price, especially as you don't have to haggle over it.  The stats look good, nice low frequency response and decent amplification.  Don't know what the back looks like, but if you can face the front towards the wall behind the TV without having an ugly mess of wires/knobs sticking out, you might get the benefits of downward firing - at the very least, it'll sound like the bass is coming from the TV rather than from that speaker.  But that's something to play with and see if you notice the difference

[Mr. Analog]

Both of those subwoofers are nearly identical except for one thing, the Polk is a 12", the JBL is 10".



The only thing I couldn't find was whether or not both (or neither) subwoofers had manual crossover settings.



Incedentally, to get slightly better sound out of either of these units a little trick is that you have the loudspeaker face the wall, this will dilute the sound somewhat and make the bass signal seem to be a bit more omni-directional.



But again, as Thorin said, I make no claims that I am a professional.

[Ustauk]

I agree that the specs were pretty close. The only differences were the size, and something called power handling, which is 260w  on the polk versus a 150 watt.  Does anybody know what power handling means?  And the Polk has a three year warranty on the electronics, where the JBL only has a 1 year on the electroincs.  Both have five on the speaker.

[Melbosa]

downfiring = better?



i got a sub as part of a $1000 speaker system (5.1), and the sub is downfirng, where the one it replaced was not.  In an apartment its a shame i cannot truely test it out.

From car audio, I learned that facing the subwoofer cone away from the listener made the source of the sound harder to pinpoint.  When it's hard to pinpoint the sound (and your brain tries to subconsciously), it becomes easier to believe that it's coming from the same place as all the visual cues you get from the movie.  This tends to increase your ability to suspend your disbelief, making the experience seem more real.

This is OK to a point, but sometimes not so.



First car:  Depending on your layout, changing the directory of the sub can not only change your source perception, but also the DBs, clearity, and sound varient.  Huh?  Well consider a vehicle is basically a tin-can sealed.  It's shape determines your sound fields and variations on how the sound bounces around inside.  Therefore this has been my experiences:

• In most hatchbacks, the best sound out of subs is facing them against the back seat pointing at the rear windshield, angled so they face directly at the window.  Why?  Well as the sound reverbs of the back windshield, it is the directed at the passenger's heads in the car.

• In most sedans, your best bet is to face the subs directly into the back seat, with a box designed to allow a tiny (maybe 1" at most) gap between the seat and the box, but at the same angle (if any) of the back seat.  Why?  Your trunk usually has 2 exits with sound into the cab: 1) the speaker ports above on the back deck or 2) the back seat material or slits (if your seats drop down).  If the sound was directed in a way that it went through the deck, you wouldn't hear your rear fill speakers very well, and your sub sound fields would be cut appart by your rear fills.  Plus the angle would pretty much have your sub sound cresting your back passenger's heads and bounce the the butts of your front seaters.

• In a truck, if your subs are in your cab, its best to point them down, because they are so close to the back of your head - unless you like that type of base.  Because the cab is so small, the sound will fill the whole area.  Usually have to run your subs lower in this environment.

[/list]



Second house: House is a lot lot lot harder to setup your speakers for.  Reasons are:  Your room is fairly large - reason the impedence is so much higher on house speakers, cause sound has to travel farther; You have structures usually obscuring the sound fields - couch, tables; Becuase of the last 2 you will find that  as sound travels distances, it is more affected by structures.  So as Thorin and Mr. A pointed out, a good trick - and general rule of thumb (and why subs are designed this way by default) - are to point the sub down and/or away from the seating area.  But this isn't always the most ideal.  If you have the ability to have more than 1 sub, such in my setup, you want to face the subs at each other, into the center of our sound fields.  4 works best, but have succeeded with this with 2.  The result is that the sounds bouce off each other and cause a similar effect of the down/away.  The only difference, is cause the sound is directed at your seating people, you get a feeling of theatre sound.  Why?  Cause you feel the base coming at you, vs feeling the base reverb off the floor/wall.



It is interesting to note, in the threatre, where is your sub speakers?  Behind the screen, directed at the audience.

[Ustauk]

Hmm, it says on the spec that the new sub would be shielded.  Assuming it didn't warp my entertainment units top shelf, would it be safe to pu the sub on top of the entertainment unit, over the TV?

[Cova]

Put your sub on the floor - it'll vibrate the hell out of anything you put it on, and will vibrate itself if it isn't on something sturdy and won't sound as good.  That 10-12" cone will be moving around a LOT, and you want to try and keep as much of that energy as possible in the cone, and not the rest of the sub moving around.  Shove it in a corner out of the way somewhere, subs are non-directional (hence they can be made down-firing).

[Mr. Analog]

The sub channel is supposed to be an omnidirecitonal sound "additive" ultimately indistinguishable from any other channel (other than all low-end sounds having more power all around).



4 subs, IMHO are overkill, even two subs is pushing it (I do find Mel's setup to be a bit bass heavy, no offence). Facing foreward firing subs opposite each other could have a cancelling effect or cause other serious distortion issues for other interacting speakers (notably rear surround channels).



The placement of theatre subwoofers behind the screen is more or less a necessity for two reasons: They are enormous. They use the space behind the screen as a resonance chambre. If you've ever seen behind the screen (I got a chance once at a tour of the Edmonton Space Science Centre IMAX theatre, which was upgraded to a more modern Dolby setup in the early-to-mid-90s) the main speakers are actually quite close to the screen whereas the sub is placed somewhat behind them and not even centred. Incedentally, there is a theatre store here in Edmonton where you can purchase an 18" (or larger) sub unit for a theatre (you can also buy the popcorn machines or even row seating ) if you ever wanted to see one up close.