New Players and Observers

[Thorin]

Recently there was a request to observe our group playing D20 Modern.  I thought this a good opportunity to lay out my opinions on new players and observers.

New Players

I am happy to invite new players to the group when there is room.  Typically, I can handle up to six characters when GMing.  so what do I consider a viable new player?  Here's my criteria:

• A new player has read through the D20 Modern handbook at least once (not cover-to-cover, just the character creation and combat chapters)
• A new player has one or more concepts for characters in mind and has been in touch by email or on the forums to discuss those concepts
• A new player wants to learn the rules better than they already do, and plan on re-reading sections of the D20 Modern handbook between sessions
• A new player owns their own dice
• A new player has Friday nights free (and work at keeping them free by telling friends and family they're busy that night)
• A new player already knows they want to try this game

If a new player matching those criteria approaches me, I'm happy to help them flesh out their character stats and backstory, explain trickier rules, and find a way to incorporate their character into the storyline.

D20 Modern, as any pen-n-paper role-playing game, is a shared experience and all players and GM alike are responsible for ensuring everyone present is having fun.  In the 19 years that I've been playing, I've seen a dozen or so instances of players' significant others join the group, and all but two of those ended up disrupting the group (making the experience less fun for the other players). Thus I'm always hesitant to allow significant others into the group.  However, I've found that people who really want to play generally prove it by learning the basic rules and having a character concept and/or plot hooks for the GM.  I look for these traits in players' significant others who want to join when deciding whether to invite them to join us.

Observers

In all my years, I've also seen more than a few observers, people who just want to see what role-playing is like because they've never done it.  These people typically don't want to jump right in because they have no idea if they'll like it or not, they usually haven't read any of the rules, and they frequently don't think they have enough time to spend on the game.  In my experience, whenever someone has been observing two things happen:

• I feel like I'm an exhibit at the zoo (ooh, look, the monkeys are playing!)
• The observer gets bored after a few minutes or hours (depending on their attention span) and ends up disrupting the session
• I feel bad for the observer, who has nothing to do and really can't join in the conversation because it doesn't make sense to them

(pretty much the same as if I were to sit in on a four-hour quilting session without even having a quilt to work on)

It is for these reasons that I say no observers in any groups I play with.  If a person is interested enough in the game that they want to see it played but aren't entirely sure, I encourage them to read the rules and learn the lingo, then to come for a session or two where they play a throwaway character.  If you're not ready to commit to reading a hundred or so pages but are interested in why people might like role-playing games, I encourage you to read Mr. Analog's "What Is Role Playing?" thread.  He sums it up nicely.

[Mr. Analog]

These guidelines generally follow my thoughts as well.

I will say this though, if someone really really really wants to find out what RPGing is like they should head down to Warp 2 or Whyte Knights on late Saturday afternoon, they have tables set up just for gaming and there is a pretty good batch of people playing.

[Adams]

Interesting I would have thought that you would have been more open to observers / possible new players.

I understand that you want the conversation to be part of the experience but some one like me who knows what it is but isn't sure if he would like to join... I am not going to go to Warp to watch people I don't know play a game I am not sure about. Also I would rather bother people I know then some stranger.

Good to know.

[Mr. Analog]

The trouble is this; if you show up it's very likely you won't like what you see, let's face it you will be watching a group of people interacting only with each other about story elements which you have no clue. It would be the same as seeing strangers from Warp playing the game, but even worse you'll know some of us.

A much better way of getting involved from the beginning is getting a mentor, the first thing you need to learn is the basics of the game itself. Learning how it works from a conceptual level is very important. The next step is introductions, you want to get to know the party and who and what their characters are. There's a bit more of a personal investment in creating and integrating a character into pen and paper RPGs (if you want the "full on" experience that is, there are plenty of gamers out there who just play the mechanic, but that's kind of boring for the most part and you don't really get to have fun, you're just crunching numbers and beating the probability curve). The final step is character creation, if you can come up with a concept that fits and you've got your stats figured out then you can join the game, but really by then you'll know what to do for the most part and you won't have to waste the first few sessions figuring stuff out.

This is not something that came to me immediately, I used to let anyone sit in on a game but I've since come to understand that the best way to get in the game is through a mentor or by just reading the core rules (but preferably both).

[Mr. Analog]

Sorry, I just re-read your post. If you know what it is already from a mechanics standpoint then you really just need to get to know the DM, the players and what's going on story wise. Again, a mentor here is going to help out the most.

With knowledge of how the game works you can ask questions right off the bat that we can answer pretty clearly, and if you come up with a character concept early then I certainly have no problem letting you check out a game or two before you jump in.

I just want to be clear here though, anyone can join us but there has to be a bit of commitment on their part first.

What do you look for in a game?

What do you avoid?

Would be my big 2 questions.

[Thorin]

Interesting I would have thought that you would have been more open to observers / possible new players.

The problem here is that to me observers and possible new players are two different types of people, as I outlined in the original post.  I am not open to observers, but I'm very open to possible new players.

I understand that you want the conversation to be part of the experience but some one like me who knows what it is but isn't sure if he would like to join... I am not going to go to Warp to watch people I don't know play a game I am not sure about. Also I would rather bother people I know then some stranger.

Good to know.

If someone said to me that they're interested in trying out D20 Modern or D&D, I would encourage them to make up a character, even if it's a throw-away character.  That way they can experience for themselves what pen-n-paper roleplaying is about, rather than watch some other people experience it.  I also have no problem with people trying it for a session or two and then deciding that they're not interested after all; at least they put in the effort to actually try the game, rather than decide whether they like it or not based on what they see other people do.  That'd be like trying to decide whether you like driving or not based on watching cars go by, or trying to decide whether anchovies taste good on pizza based on watching your friends eat them on pizza, or trying to decide on whether you like playing WoW based on watching your sister play.

some one like me who knows what it is but isn't sure if he would like to join

If you already know the mechanics, then it should be fairly straightforward to roll up a throw-away character that you and the GM/DM expect will die after a couple of sessions.  The question is, are you trying to decide whether you want to play D20 Modern/D&D or not (in which case, do some reading so you understand the mechanics), or trying to decide whether to join a particular D20 Modern/D&D group (in which case, roll up a character so that you can interact with the other players to see if you like their playing style).

So...  What made you bring this up?  Interest in a pen-n-paper game?

[Tom]

I agree with whats been said, but I'd like to put it in my own words.

I have no problems with new players, or even an occasional observer, but the person should have made some prior effort getting to know the game, the campaign, and the individual player-characters.

If all you do is ask to watch in a few different ways, and make NO attempt to even try to learn the game, theres no room for you.

Personally, I enjoy the player interaction and ensuing hilarity more than the games themselves, although they are pretty good too

[Mr. Analog]

Personally, I enjoy the player interaction and ensuing hilarity more than the games themselves, although they are pretty good too

Different games have different feels to them, it's really up to the players to provide content and the DM to roll with it (pun intended).  I've played some more serious-leaning stuff as well as some way-over-the-top stuff. But one thing is common, the group builds the world, and you really just can't drop in and expect to get anything useful out of it. I think that's the same in any hobbyist group though and I doubt very much that anything constructive can be gained purely by osmosis.

Anyway, the call always goes back to the group and the DM.

[Adams]

Oh I see these games and I have no idea how the mechanics work... other then very basic ideas. It sounds like I wouldn't fit in since I really know nothing other then well... you need a character... and some dice and paper. The inner workings make no sense to me other then dice one number is higher then another.

Hell I just learned what DC was I am quite clueless. In any case I know that if I came to one I would have to be more versed in the mechanics more so then what I am.

To me it is not the story that really matters it is more just being with some friends. (Of course if you roll an idiot character then you would have to play that way but not really act that way.)

[Mr. Analog]

Sorry didn't want to scare you off or anything, we're quite happy to have new players of any skill level to join, it's just better if you mentor with someone first

If you're interested drop me a note.

[Thorin]

It sounds like I wouldn't fit in since I really know nothing other then well... you need a character... and some dice and paper.

There's nothing wrong with knowing nothing when you first start out.  If I were the GM (GameMaster) for a game you'd like to join to try it out, I would probably get together with you individually first and give you a hand putting together a throw-away character.  I would also lend you the rulebook and tell you what couple of sections to read up on for the first session.

Knowing that you're still at the beginning of understanding the rules, I would make sure to point out during play what rules are being used for what scenarios and why.  Your first character would probably die, and I would not punish you by reducing XP or equipment for your second character; after all, you didn't really know what was important in the game when you created your first character.

Notice, though, in all of that you're playing to see if you like it, not watching.  It's hard to learn what DC or Defense or Base Attack Bonus or AC or Fort Save means if you're just listening, whereas when it's happening to your character you have a vested interest in figuring out what it means and why it's important.  And I guess that's the difference, to me, between a new player and an observer.

And that all ties into my original post:

• A new player has read through the D20 Modern handbook at least once (not cover-to-cover, just the character creation and combat chapters)

That's why I would lend you a book and point out what sections to read through.

• A new player has one or more concepts for characters in mind and has been in touch by email or on the forums to discuss those concepts

That's the whole part where I, as GM, would meet with you separately before the game.  The "meet" could happen entirely through email or chat, if desired.

• A new player wants to learn the rules better than they already do, and plan on re-reading sections of the D20 Modern handbook between sessions

If you don't know the rules at all, then this just means that you're willing to read through them at least once before the first session.  It's like reading the rules to Monopoly or Risk before you set out the board.

• A new player owns their own dice

Long-time players such as myself frequently have sets of dice that we don't like to lend out.  Call me superstitious if you will...  Besides, ten bucks for a tube of dice isn't a large investment.  It's not necessary for the first session or two, but buying dice has turned out,for me, to be a great indication of whether the person is actually going to give this a good go before deciding whether they like it or not.

• A new player has Friday nights free (and work at keeping them free by telling friends and family they're busy that night)

Now that I'm older and have more draws on my time, playing on a set schedule is very important.  If one night is missed it might be four weeks between sessions.  And pen-n-paper RPGs don't usually progress fast enough if you only meet once every four weeks.  Basically, it's the entire group's responsibility to make the game fun for the entire group.  For me, that means setting session dates ahead of time because I can't just drop everything and come and play.

• A new player already knows they want to try this game

The emphasis should be on "try".  It doesn't say that the new player has to commit long-term before the first session, but it does mean that by the time they're coming to that first session they need to be in the frame of mind where they're willing to give it a good go.  Observers, as I define them, generally still aren't sure whether they really want to even try; most of the time, that's because a Significant Other is cajoling them into coming out to the game.

[Thorin]

Garr, Mr. A. beat me to the post.  And he's much more succinct

[Tom]

Heh, I also started with no clue, and some would argue I still don't have a clue

Its pretty easy to pick up

[Mr. Analog]

Its pretty easy to pick up

For some it comes faster than others I think.

I don't want to gripe here, HOWEVER (I will anyway). One of the dangers I thought of before we started using eTools was that while players might be able to easily update and keep track of their sheets they wouldn't really get into the character creation process quite as much as if they had painstakingly calculated every modifier and agonizingly spent each skill point. Granted some of you came in very green.

I'm not ragging on anyone in particular however I've already noticed a level of comfort with the d20 characters that I don't see with the D&D characters. Maybe I'm crazy, but it's sort of disappointing to me when people have to look at their attack bonus every goddamn time when they've had the same character for a few years...

Anyway, I don't want to bring the party down...

...and hey, if you don't like your character or if you have a better idea for one just make a new one, don't feel hemmed in by bad choices (though sometimes wonky stats are more fun to play as anyway).

Bleh.

[Thorin]

You have a point about the use of eTools - most people don't know why exactly they're skills are at the number they're at.  What's that -3 or +2 come from?  And if you don't know where it comes from, then you won't know when it doesn't apply anymore...

On the other hand, the D20 Modern characters are a lot simpler still.  There's much less to them, and things like armor check penalties don't apply because no one's wearing armor beyond a leather jacket (which incurs no armor check penalty).  There's less weapons on the sheet, less skill ranks, no synergy bonuses yet, and only two or three feats that typically don't change the numbers.  Compared to that, our magic-enhanced multi-weaponed synergistic-skilled many-feated warhorse-mounted D&D characters are complex.  And it only gets more complex as we go up in level