BAFTA 2007 Awards

[Mr. Analog]

Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.

Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?

Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.

I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.

[Shayne]

Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.

You found that to be true?  My brother and I didn't get that feeling much at all.  Sure you have communicate to those around you such as "cover the door, I'm gonna flank around the outside" but thats not really all that simulated.  If that were the case wouldn't Counter-Strike be the perennial winner?

I found the AI to be weak at best and never really did anything tactically amazing.  Normally they'd just sit behind cover and fire wildly or run at you while firing wildly.  The AI of my squad was superior, but the enemy left me wanting.

To be honest I don't play a lot of co-op/online much these days as I find the 13 year old wankers on the other end to be rather offensive and unfun to play with.  With a group of 4 guys and enemies set to have extreme density I could see it being tough but thats only due to the massive amounts of guys and the fact that shots can kill you instantly.

[Melbosa]

I'll say this about Vegas.  As for a Simulation, it isn't so much the FPS part that I consider simulated but the tactiful nature of the game.  Tactics IMO in the game are a nessessity against the well designed AI.  This is the PC version mind you, I am not sure how much more difficult or easier the 360 version might have been to combat the lack of Mouse accuracy in an FPS versus Joystick control on a controller.  Another aspect was the ability to shot through cover depending on the calibur of gun/bullets used, adding another tactic that could be employed.

As a comparison, with two games that utilize cover heavily, Gears of War and Vegas are two very different games, very differently played, and similar only in FPS shot people terms, or the use of cover with blind-fire abilities.

[Shayne]

Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?

Not to the level that you recall.  You can direct (in game) your AI squad mates to go to a door and do a number of actions like clear the room, throw a flash, blow open the door, etc.  I normally had my AI do it so that I wouldn't get killed doing it myself.

[Thorin]

Yeah, I have that same definition for "simulate".  What's missing is whether they based their decision on the games ability to imitate or reproduce the appearance, character, or conditions of outcomes due to players' actions, or the games ability to imitate or reproduce the players' actions themselves.

Do they consider a very detailed world with excellent physics where the player's interaction with the world is via joystick and X button more or less than a non-descript world where the player's interaction maps closely to the player's actual movements?

And that's where we all seem to think that the excellent physics make the game a better simulator, whereas the reviewers might think the closer mapping between a player's actions to the in-game actions make the game a better simulator.

[Shayne]

The problem I have is that Wii Sports doesn't "closely map to the player's actual movements".  If you've ever played tennis its a lot more then just swinging a forehand constantly without moving.  I gotta go back to Golf though as this game truely annoys me.  If I do a full swing as I would on the course (and do a half dozen or more times a year) I can put full power and get a straight drive.  In Wii golf if you put anything more into a swing outside of a gentle follow through you get that red wiggly bar and a massive hook/slice that seems random as to which it gives.  The issue I have with the Wii controller and simulating any actual human activity is the loss of tactile feedback.

So yes, I would say that simulating an actual event with fancy graphics and a rock solid physics model is more of a simulator then waggling a Wiimote.

[Melbosa]

Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.

Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?

Yes, we had to plan that very much so, especially after playing a map once, and getting a feel for the layout.  Problem (and one I like as a challenge) is that the enemies aren't always in the same place on a map the next time you go through, so having someone watch your 6 as you move through a hallway was a necessity being that you could be flanked at any time.  Again the PC version has a lot of patches already which may have improved AI beyond the 360 version; unfortunately I am unsure as to the differences.

Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.

I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.

Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago).  Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such.  Google can be your friend.

[Mr. Analog]

Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?

Not to the level that you recall.  You can direct (in game) your AI squad mates to go to a door and do a number of actions like clear the room, throw a flash, blow open the door, etc.  I normally had my AI do it so that I wouldn't get killed doing it myself.

I see.

Have you tried the PC version? Is there a difference in the AI do you think?

Either way, getting back to the original conversation, I'm pretty sure now that Rainbow Six: Vegas couldn't be considered a simulation, mostly because of all the fantastical or speculative elements. If you had a game where you used swat teams in co-ordinated planned counter terrorist manoeuvres in real world locations following established protocols (i.e. safety measures, etc) then it would be.

I mean Battlefield 2 is dressed up to look real, but it's a far cry from reality.

[Shayne]

Have you tried the PC version? Is there a difference in the AI do you think?

No, but I have no doubt.  I find gaming on my big screen on a comfy leather sofa and surround sound much more enjoyable and relaxing then being cramped at my desk in front of a keyboard and mouse   Personal pref im sure.

[Mr. Analog]

Rainbow 6 Vegas really does require tactical implementation when playing through on Co-op mode.

Do you go through a map mode where you set where up where certain elements of your team should go and what they should be doing when they get there? Or is it just peer supported tactics "don't go running around you moron"?

Yes, we had to plan that very much so, especially after playing a map once, and getting a feel for the layout.  Problem (and one I like as a challenge) is that the enemies aren't always in the same place on a map the next time you go through, so having someone watch your 6 as you move through a hallway was a necessity being that you could be flanked at any time.  Again the PC version has a lot of patches already which may have improved AI beyond the 360 version; unfortunately I am unsure as to the differences.

But planning is not a part of the actual game play, it's a strategy. I just can't see any argument to consider it a Sim. Now, that probably means it's a lot more fun to play. Not debating that

Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.

I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.

Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago).  Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such.  Google can be your friend.

I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you

[Mr. Analog]

I find gaming on my big screen on a comfy leather sofa and surround sound much more enjoyable and relaxing then being cramped at my desk in front of a keyboard and mouse   Personal pref im sure.

WAY off topic mate.

[Shayne]

probably, just providing further explanation of my excuse why i haven't played X game on X platform.

[Melbosa]

I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you

Nor do I expect you too!

[Thorin]

The problem I have is that Wii Sports doesn't "closely map to the player's actual movements".  If you've ever played tennis its a lot more then just swinging a forehand constantly without moving.  I gotta go back to Golf though as this game truely annoys me.  If I do a full swing as I would on the course (and do a half dozen or more times a year) I can put full power and get a straight drive.  In Wii golf if you put anything more into a swing outside of a gentle follow through you get that red wiggly bar and a massive hook/slice that seems random as to which it gives.  The issue I have with the Wii controller and simulating any actual human activity is the loss of tactile feedback.

So yes, I would say that simulating an actual event with fancy graphics and a rock solid physics model is more of a simulator then waggling a Wiimote.

And I agree with you that a simulation is more than just how the player interacts.  I was trying to provide an explanation of why the reviewers from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts might have considered it a simulation.  If I were to guess, I'd say the reviewers weren't really gamers to begin with (much like I'm not really a gamer).  This would explain why they would have qualified Wii Sports as a Simulator (because it's definitely not Strategy).

[Cova]

Forza is being used now by professional racers as a simulator for actual driving skill improvements or even track to tweaking of cars.

I'm highly sceptical of this statement, please tell me you have a link.

Cova and I have seen it posted in their "Dev" diaries on the site before: http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/ but can't tell you which one (was a bit ago).  Have also read it on some gaming review sites, but specifically can't remember which review or such.  Google can be your friend.

I'll take your word for it, but you have to admit it's a pretty grandiose claim. Google can be my friend, but I'm not the one trying to prove your point for you

The original article I had read about it is here:  http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass38.htm

A few select quotes from it for lazy people...

Soon, Melo and Salo began a friendly bout of smack-talking, taking turns on the simulator, chasing each other's ghost on the track, and lopping off seconds with every other go. After about 3 laps each, they were shaving laptimes down to the 2:03 to 2:04 mark. At one point, Mika Salo turns to me and asks, "Do you guys have (the circuit) Long Beach in this game? I've never driven it before and I need to learn it for the next race." Although I had to explain that Forza Motorsport 2 was not a dedicated ALMS game, it felt great to have Mika Salo tell you that Forza Motorsport 2 and the triple-screen setup is something he would purchase to practice for races.

Those of you who followed the 12 Hours of Sebring already know that Melo then went out there on the real track and nabbed pole position for GT2 class. His time? 2:02.439, which was just a second faster than his fastest laptime in Forza Motorsport 2

Thursday's gameplay session with the Risi drivers was an absolute success story for Turn 10. We not only discovered that our game met their quality bar in terms of realism, but also that Forza 2 was actually useful in helping them memorize their lines and hone their reflexes on Sebring.

As for my opinions on the topic - yes I consider Forza 2 to be a simulator (specifically a racing simulator - simulating what happens outside of the race, eg. not having the cash to pay for repairs is considered out of scope of the game and a factor that would make it less fun).  I would not consider rainbow-six to be a simulator, or CS or other games like that - IMHO they aren't close enough to reality.  Wii sports is most definately not a simulator of any kind, its an arcade game.