New toy!

[Darren Dirt]

My whole point is that some people CAN NOT get that kind of experience. What are they supposed to do? Not drive at all? Ever?

Other than [persuading/making new] friends who have lotsa time on their hands to let you drive them around everywhere, there is the option of spending that money (maybe a few times over the 12 months) on driving courses -- surely there are some that are not focused on "absolute beginners", but rather those drivers looking to get lengthy experience behind the wheel.

Just get the Class 7 *ASAP* , cuz those 12 months will eventually pass and even if you DON'T get a few hundred hours of road experience before the road test, if you really know the Book, and then just before the Class 5 road test you take the pretty inexpensive focused course that my son took imo you should pass it pretty easily. Just don't be overly moronic-AGGRO at intersections, but also don't be overly CAUTIOUS (my son's friend failed 3 times, all for that reason aka "obstructing traffic" because he didn't get the wheels rolling fast enough after coming to a stop -- yikes eh)

[Tom]

I should let it be known that I'm also super paranoid about my lack of focus and attention span. And the whole "vehicles put me to sleep" thing.

Other than [persuading/making new] friends who have lotsa time on their hands to let you drive them around everywhere,

Also, while I do have nice friends, I don't have nice friends who also have a lot of free time

[Thorin]

When you pass the written test you get your "Class 7" which allows you to drive with a licensed Class 5 driver in the passenger seat, until MIDNIGHT.

The licensed class 5 driver also has to be an adult and on a non-probationary license and not drunk.  The rules used to say that this driving was only for learning purposes so if you had groceries in the trunk then that drive was actually to get groceries, not for learning; thankfully they took this fine print out.  The rules used to say the only other passenger could be the licensed class 5 driver in the passenger seat so you couldn't drive the family wagon if the family was in the car; they removed this condition as well.

When you pass the ROAD TEST to get your "Class 5", you immediately are able to drive alone. UNTIL MIDNIGHT.

Almost right - class 5 GDL, which you receive after your road test, allows you drive alone any time of day or night.  See: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType47/Production/graduateddriverlic.pdf. 

My son got a LOT of experience behind the wheel with me sitting beside him (as well as his mom, but a large majority was ME anxiously pulling out my remaining hair while he fish-tailed on the Worst Winter Roads Ever or went over the biggest of the Worst Potholes Ever, but hey now he's a VERY confident and skilled driver!) ... fortunately he didn't need to take a Driver Training school/class as a result (although he took a "pre-test" course for like $60 or $80 that he said really helped him to know what to make sure he nailed on the road test).

Did you teach him about covering the brake?
Did you teach him how to properly use the dead pedal for threshold braking?
Did you teach him how to apply the brakes properly for poor-man's torque vectoriing?
Did you teach him the difference between stopping for a stop sign with a stop line and a stop sign without a stop line?
Did you teach him (and practice) four-wheels-no-traction skid control?  Not fishtailing in traffic, that's dangerous as hell to the rest of us; I'm talking about a closed course with specific low-traction zones where you get used to how a car behaves when it loses all traction and what happens when you try to regain traction.
Did you teach him what to do after he runs over a dog that ran out from nowhere?
Did you teach him about overheated brakes when travelling down mountainsides?
Did you teach him how to properly reverse a thirty foot long, eight foot wide travel trailer into a nine foot wide parking lane?
Did you teach him about ramming and deep snow?
Did you teach him about high-centering?
Did you teach him about not going back in the car while filling the gas tank? (explosion hazard)
Did you teach him what this sign means?


Statistically speaking, 16 year olds are the worst drivers on the road, so saying that he's a very skilled driver has to be prefixed with "for his age".  He undoubtedly still makes mistakes and undoubtedly still has many skills to learn.

[Lazybones]

Driver training may not cover these but they are also worth knowing:

Understand the difference in emergency breaking between Non-ABS and ABS equipped vehicles.
Understand the difference in breaking distance under dry conditions for Non-ABS and ABS equipped vehicles.
Understand the difference between acceleration traction issues under slippery conditions between a Non-Traction control and Traction control equipped vehicles.
Understanding the difference in behavior of steering between a front, rear or all-wheel drive when cornering under icy conditions

[Thorin]

Tom, I get that having to wait just makes you more anxious and dampens your desire to get a drivers license.  But just pretend it's a brand new computer that's taking a year to piece together - you will eventually get it delivered to you.  See if you can turn the anxiety into anticipation like you would have for that new computer.

As an adult living alone there is a way to get the hours-behind-the-wheel experience, it just costs a lot more than when living with others that freely give you their time and vehicle to practice.  Keep in mind that not every kid gets to take the family vehicle to practice in as not every parent has a car, or if they do, will allow their child to drive it.  For these kids to get their experience, they simply have to pay a driving school.

But if a person truly does not have friends or family who will give their time and vehicle freely AND that person doesn't have enough money to pay a driving school, then yes, that person will likely never get their drivers license and be able to drive.  Of course, they'd never be able to afford a car, either.  Having to wait a year between class 7 and class 5 versus being able to get class 7 today and class 5 tomorrow has no impact on this.

As for lack of focus and attention span...  Have you seen Edmonton-area drivers?  You'd probably be more attentive than most because you're worried about paying attention.

[Tom]

I dunno. I just think people like me, who don't have easy access to a vehicle will end up just skirting around the intent of the rules, barely pass the driving test, and end up just as bad, or worse than they otherwise would be (its been a whole year since the written test after all).

[Darren Dirt]

Statistically speaking, 16 year olds are the worst drivers on the road, so saying that he's a very skilled driver has to be prefixed with "for his age".  He undoubtedly still makes mistakes and undoubtedly still has many skills to learn.

He's 17. And a half. Plus, I am actually comparing him to the typical drivers on Edmonton roads, during the weekends and evenings, which is the main times that we drove, and the main times I got to teach him on-the-spot lessons

As for lack of focus and attention span...  Have you seen Edmonton-area drivers?  You'd probably be more attentive than most because you're worried about paying attention.

As I said, they are the reason my son is a better driver now than I was in my early 20s. Other drivers = cautionary tale, i.e. "don't be this guy" -- e.g. failure to use turn signal before lane change, following too close, changing lanes quickly OBVIOUSLY not looking in their blind spot etc. ... it's better to train him to be overly paranoid about The Other Guy than to just focus on playing out the Theory that he got from the Book. Plenty in the book is too hard to memorize (e.g. stopping distances, other braking stuff) vs. when a Real Life situation happens and his natural instinct is either praised/supported as correct "i.e. don't change a thing" or else corrected/warned "i.e. do the opposite of what you woulda done, there".

Not exaggerating, from what I've seen firsthand (and some stuff he has told me since driving without a parent) = he takes driving as a very serious responsibility and privilege, not a fun toy... a definite contrast to the "average" teenage boy, including myself until my late teens.

PS:

Did you teach him about covering the brake?
Did you teach him how to properly use the dead pedal for threshold braking?
Did you teach him how to apply the brakes properly for poor-man's torque vectoriing?
Did you teach him the difference between stopping for a stop sign with a stop line and a stop sign without a stop line?
Did you teach him (and practice) four-wheels-no-traction skid control?  Not fishtailing in traffic, that's dangerous as hell to the rest of us; I'm talking about a closed course with specific low-traction zones where you get used to how a car behaves when it loses all traction and what happens when you try to regain traction.
Did you teach him what to do after he runs over a dog that ran out from nowhere?
Did you teach him about overheated brakes when travelling down mountainsides?
Did you teach him how to properly reverse a thirty foot long, eight foot wide travel trailer into a nine foot wide parking lane?
Did you teach him about ramming and deep snow?
Did you teach him about high-centering?
Did you teach him about not going back in the car while filling the gas tank? (explosion hazard)

*I* don't know most of that stuff! (at least by those words.) My son's mature attitude is a GREAT starting point, putting him well ahead of a LOT of others on the roads of Edmonton, and it's likely that a lot of the list above is never really gonna be a consideration in his driving "career". (As I said, virtually all of it hasn't been in mine, or in the career of others I know, at least AFAIK )




Back On Topic...

But if a person truly does not have friends or family who will give their time and vehicle freely AND that person doesn't have enough money to pay a driving school, then yes, that person will likely never get their drivers license and be able to drive.  Of course, they'd never be able to afford a car, either.  Having to wait a year between class 7 and class 5 versus being able to get class 7 today and class 5 tomorrow has no impact on this.

Yeah, sadly the above is clearly Tom's situation, pretty much ... and it's also my brother's situation, a nasty Catch-22.

[Tom]

Well, luckily it isn't /quite/ my situation anymore. I can afford to pay for some driver training, which I will do. And I may take up some people on their offers for driving time. So its not all bad. But it used to be!

[Tom]

Also, I just got in a new toy:



Was going to bring up my old media box hw as a spare box for various things, but its mobo is likely dead, and the cpu is an am2+, which doesn't work in the desktop's old AM3 motherboard, so I thought about getting a cheap replacement am3 for the desktop board... then I thought, why not just spend a bit more to get a really nice upgrade for the desktop? You can till which route I picked. The Phenom II 810 thats in there now will soon live in the spare box.

[Mr. Analog]

Freaking awesome!!

That's goin' in the MC server right hahaha

Edit: It's cool that you can verify the CPU details with the QR Code (i.e. it works pretty well)

[Tom]

Freaking awesome!!

That's goin' in the MC server right hahaha

The mc server has one of these:

(Xeon E3 1230)


It may actually be faster.

[Mr. Analog]

Heh nice!

[Thorin]

As for lack of focus and attention span...  Have you seen Edmonton-area drivers?  You'd probably be more attentive than most because you're worried about paying attention.

As I said, they are the reason my son is a better driver now than I was in my early 20s. Other drivers = cautionary tale, i.e. "don't be this guy" -- e.g. failure to use turn signal before lane change, following too close, changing lanes quickly OBVIOUSLY not looking in their blind spot etc. ... it's better to train him to be overly paranoid about The Other Guy than to just focus on playing out the Theory that he got from the Book. Plenty in the book is too hard to memorize (e.g. stopping distances, other braking stuff) vs. when a Real Life situation happens and his natural instinct is either praised/supported as correct "i.e. don't change a thing" or else corrected/warned "i.e. do the opposite of what you woulda done, there".

[..]

Did you teach him about covering the brake?
Did you teach him how to properly use the dead pedal for threshold braking?
Did you teach him how to apply the brakes properly for poor-man's torque vectoriing?
Did you teach him the difference between stopping for a stop sign with a stop line and a stop sign without a stop line?
Did you teach him (and practice) four-wheels-no-traction skid control?  Not fishtailing in traffic, that's dangerous as hell to the rest of us; I'm talking about a closed course with specific low-traction zones where you get used to how a car behaves when it loses all traction and what happens when you try to regain traction.
Did you teach him what to do after he runs over a dog that ran out from nowhere?
Did you teach him about overheated brakes when travelling down mountainsides?
Did you teach him how to properly reverse a thirty foot long, eight foot wide travel trailer into a nine foot wide parking lane?
Did you teach him about ramming and deep snow?
Did you teach him about high-centering?
Did you teach him about not going back in the car while filling the gas tank? (explosion hazard)

*I* don't know most of that stuff! (at least by those words.) My son's mature attitude is a GREAT starting point, putting him well ahead of a LOT of others on the roads of Edmonton, and it's likely that a lot of the list above is never really gonna be a consideration in his driving "career". (As I said, virtually all of it hasn't been in mine, or in the career of others I know, at least AFAIK )

Braking effectively in as little space as possible is the very first skill a driver needs to learn, without excellent braking skills one cannot call oneself a skilled driver.  One can drive with an excessive amount of space in front, behind, and to the side of the vehicle, to leave lots and lots of time for required reactions, but that's a cautious driver, not necessarily a skilled one.  Now, a skilled driver can exhibit the same cautiousness and keep lots of distance, but the difference between a skilled driver exhibiting cautiousness and an unskilled driver exhibiting cautiousness is how they react when thrown into a situation that cannot be avoided and that does not have a lot of time for reactions.

I do not consider myself a good driver, having seen what truly skilled drivers can do when given almost no time to react, but I know that braking skill is one of the most important foundations of skilled driving.  Braking isn't just jamming the brake pedal, though, real braking skill is being able to stop the car as quickly as possible while still maintaining the control required to avoid obstacles (cars, pedestrians, signs, etc).  The actual techniques vary depending on the amount and type of traction at each wheel and the direction the car is travelling.

I have to say, good job for teaching him to be cautious, though.  Drivers can be skilled and cautious, skilled but not cautious, not skilled but cautious, or not skilled and not cautious.  Too many Edmonton drivers fall in that fourth category.  It surprises me how little representation Edmonton and area has had at Canada's Worst Driver through the seasons.

-----

The stuff I listed there, all but the skid control I learned and/or practiced in paid-for drivers training (the skid control was in the advanced course that I couldn't afford at the time, the trailer-backing was theory only).

covering the brake - moving the foot off the gas pedal to hover over the brake pedal in anticipation of the possibility of having to brake; it takes 3/10ths of a second to do this, which is 5 meters at 60km/h (or roughly one car length), so covering the brake in anticipation instead of waiting until braking is required could be the difference between just hit and just stopped in time

dead pedal / threshold braking - threshold breaking is used for non-ABS cars (or where ABS is turned off or has failed); it involves pushing the brake pedal as hard as possible without locking up the tires, this is done by putting the left foot on the dead pedal and the right foot on the brake pedal and pressing down hard on both and if the tires lock up then press down harder on the dead pedal as this will cause the right foot to press less hard on the brake pedal

poor-man's torque vectoring - if the drive wheels are spinning (say, on ice), lightly apply the brake so that the spinning wheel stops spinning and the wheel with traction gets power; if the car has traction control and it's on, it'll do it for you

stop sign with a stop line - stop with the entire car behind the line / stop sign without a stop line - stop within ten feet of the intersecting roadway; if the stop sign is twenty feet back, then you actually stop past the stop sign by at least ten feet (many people think you're supposed to stop behind the stop sign, this is wrong)

run over a dog - stop and report the accident, if you leave the scene you are guilty of hit-and-run; you can check the collar for a phone number and call the owners, or call the police to attend the scene

braking down mountainsides - brakes overheat easily and can and will catch fire if used for prolonged periods such as when driving down a mountainside; drop into a low gear to use engine braking to slow down, apply the brakes as necessary on steeper sections but let your foot off the brake pedal every now and then to let the rotor and pads cool down

deep snow and ramming - if the snow comes up to the bottom of the car and you need to get through, back up then drive in a straight line at it; this will cause snow to pile up in front of the car; stop before the car bogs down, back straight out using your tire ruts, then do the same thing again; this will eventually create a lane that you can drive through

high-centering - this is when too much stuff gets under your car between the front and back wheels and causes your car to become stuck; frequently, one tire is lifted off the ground and you don't have traction anymore.  Usually you have to dig out from under the car, but some drivers don't realize digging out the tires isn't enough

re-entering a car while fueling - putting gas in the tank creates gasoline vapour, getting in and out of a car can cause you to charge up with static electricity, touching the metal nozzle while still charged up can ignite the vapours (this is pretty damn rare, though); it's also important to fill containers like jerrycans on the ground rather than in the air or on a bumper of a vehicle

[Thorin]

Tom, nice new CPU you have there.  Your "spare parts" box is gonna be better than my main machines!

[Tom]

Tom, nice new CPU you have there.  Your "spare parts" box is gonna be better than my main machines!

Heh. I have a spare, currently unusable Phenom I 9550. A stack of DDR2 and maybe DDR1 hanging around...

I'm going to test my old AM2 board one last time, and if it doesn't work at all, anyone is free to take the Phenom I if they have a compatible machine and could use the upgrade.